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483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256727 18-Sep-2009 08:11 Send private message

Again, you see the entitlement complex come out.

Its like you guys need a wahhbulance!

Seriously, it is tivo's decision to use this as a business model, other isps dont "have the right" to provide content, again that it is tivos business decision to make.

They obviously saw a tangible business benefit for them to go through telecom. And really you can say its not anti telecom, but in reality that is pretty much what it comes down to.

I have had experience with a number of ISPs now and I have to say that Telecom has moved up to the top of my list in recent years, you just need to drop the baggage




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

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  Reply # 256730 18-Sep-2009 08:23 Send private message

tonyhughes: Can we please stop using the acronym TCNZ when referring to Telecom New Zealand.

Historically on these forums:

Telecom New Zealand = TNZ
TelstraClear New Zealand = TCNZ

Vodafone New Zealand = VFNZ


 

TCNZ is quite valid.  Telecom Corporation of New Zealand.  It was called that when i worked for them..




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Old3eyes

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  Reply # 256735 18-Sep-2009 08:38 Send private message

old3eyes:
tonyhughes: Can we please stop using the acronym TCNZ when referring to Telecom New Zealand.

Historically on these forums:

Telecom New Zealand = TNZ
TelstraClear New Zealand = TCNZ

Vodafone New Zealand = VFNZ


TCNZ is quite valid.  Telecom Corporation of New Zealand.  It was called that when i worked for them..

It's about clarity - not everyone is a telco geek like us, and being inconsistent with acronyms (i.e. using "TCNZ" to describe two major competitive telecommunications companies) is unhelpful for Joe Public reading the forums.

Historically on these forums:
Telecom New Zealand = TNZ
TelstraClear New Zealand = TCNZ






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  Reply # 256745 18-Sep-2009 09:27 Send private message

tdgeek: There is choice. Free to air, free to air Freeview, Sky/MySky, Tivo

All of us will choose one or more of the above based upon content, setup cost, monthly cost.

If I wanted cable TV and broadband I would HAVE to go to Telstra. My choice. If I want a Tivo setup I can choose to got to Telecom or choose to go to MySky. My Choice. 


I think the issue here is based on a couple of things:

TiVo is not tied to an ISP anywhere else (not that I'm aware of anyway). Tied in a way whereby if you'd like more funtionality than a simple Freeview HD DVR then you are required to use Telecom as your ISP.

TiVo is NOT a Telecom owned and developed product.

MySky HDi is a Sky developed and customised product for their TV network.

TelstraClear's digital TV products are developed and customised for their TV network (sure, much of it comes from Sky).

TiVo in Australia is available to anyone with a broadband internet connection.

I'll be honest - TiVo has never interested me and I wouldn't be getting one regardless (not because of any issues with the product, I already have MySky HDi however). I just find it unusual that they've chosen to launch in this way - my opinion and it's cool that you don't agree :)

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 256758 18-Sep-2009 10:01 Send private message

Balchy: Again, you see the entitlement complex come out.

Its like you guys need a wahhbulance!

Seriously, it is tivo's decision to use this as a business model, other isps dont "have the right" to provide content, again that it is tivos business decision to make.

They obviously saw a tangible business benefit for them to go through telecom. And really you can say its not anti telecom, but in reality that is pretty much what it comes down to.

I have had experience with a number of ISPs now and I have to say that Telecom has moved up to the top of my list in recent years, you just need to drop the baggage


People are allowed to be disappointed or even angry with a company's business decision.  You need to have a little think about what an "entitlement complex" means.  I haven't seen anyone here claiming that it is their right to have TiVo on their ISP - but a bunch of people who may have been keen on TiVo are now left out because they would have to switch ISP's to get the full functionality (that's if Telecom will even sell it to you if you're not a broadband customer). 

No one cares whether you think Telecom's broadband service is the bee's knees - they are on their current ISP for a reason - and it sucks that they should have to change providers because they want an unrelated service.  If Telecom was just zero rating TiVo traffic that'd be fine, because people would still have a choice.

Now I don't blame Telecom for this, it's a good business move by them really.  I personally think it's a poor business decision from TiVo, but of course time will tell.  I'm not really interested in TiVo myself as I run my own PVR - but TiVo has now dropped off my list of recommendations to relatives who are less technically minded but like what I can do with my PVR.

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  Reply # 256765 18-Sep-2009 10:17 Send private message

friedCrumpet: People are allowed to be disappointed or even angry with a company's business decision.  You need to have a little think about what an "entitlement complex" means.  I haven't seen anyone here claiming that it is their right to have TiVo on their ISP - but a bunch of people who may have been keen on TiVo are now left out because they would have to switch ISP's to get the full functionality (that's if Telecom will even sell it to you if you're not a broadband customer). 

No one cares whether you think Telecom's broadband service is the bee's knees - they are on their current ISP for a reason - and it sucks that they should have to change providers because they want an unrelated service.  If Telecom was just zero rating TiVo traffic that'd be fine, because people would still have a choice.

Now I don't blame Telecom for this, it's a good business move by them really.  I personally think it's a poor business decision from TiVo, but of course time will tell.  I'm not really interested in TiVo myself as I run my own PVR - but TiVo has now dropped off my list of recommendations to relatives who are less technically minded but like what I can do with my PVR.

Even if they're on Telecom already?

483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256771 18-Sep-2009 10:36 Send private message

friedCrumpet:
Balchy: Again, you see the entitlement complex come out.

Its like you guys need a wahhbulance!

Seriously, it is tivo's decision to use this as a business model, other isps dont "have the right" to provide content, again that it is tivos business decision to make.

They obviously saw a tangible business benefit for them to go through telecom. And really you can say its not anti telecom, but in reality that is pretty much what it comes down to.

I have had experience with a number of ISPs now and I have to say that Telecom has moved up to the top of my list in recent years, you just need to drop the baggage


People are allowed to be disappointed or even angry with a company's business decision.  You need to have a little think about what an "entitlement complex" means.  I haven't seen anyone here claiming that it is their right to have TiVo on their ISP - but a bunch of people who may have been keen on TiVo are now left out because they would have to switch ISP's to get the full functionality (that's if Telecom will even sell it to you if you're not a broadband customer). 

No one cares whether you think Telecom's broadband service is the bee's knees - they are on their current ISP for a reason - and it sucks that they should have to change providers because they want an unrelated service.  If Telecom was just zero rating TiVo traffic that'd be fine, because people would still have a choice.

Now I don't blame Telecom for this, it's a good business move by them really.  I personally think it's a poor business decision from TiVo, but of course time will tell.  I'm not really interested in TiVo myself as I run my own PVR - but TiVo has now dropped off my list of recommendations to relatives who are less technically minded but like what I can do with my PVR.


Relax buddy, I was giving my experience with telecom and other ISPs to provide context and show I wasnt biased towards telecom.

And yes they ae allowed to be disappointed but when it comes down to people saying its anticompetitive and all that, then yes it does come down to them feeling entitled to it.

It comes down to the fact that previous governments have regulated the crap out of so many industries pandered to pretty much anyone, that we are becoming a nanny state and not a free market economy.  But thats another debate.

But really, its just a service (A non essential one at that) Lighten up Francis




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 256778 18-Sep-2009 10:53 Send private message

Balchy: Even if they're on Telecom already?


None of them are on Telecom.  If they were I would tell them that they could get this service, but to be careful because if they ever wanted to switch to a competing ISP they would lose some of their TiVo functionality.  Which incidentally brings me to...

Balchy:

And yes they ae allowed to be disappointed but when it comes down to people saying its anticompetitive and all that, then yes it does come down to them feeling entitled to it.


...vendor lock in, which is indeed anticompetitive.  No it's not about entitlement, it's about consumer choice, if you believe so much in your free market ideals then you will also believe in this. 

In this instance it's not so bad, you still have choice of MySky, various off the shelf PVR's or building your own.  But the more often that this kind of lock in happens, the worse it is for consumers.



483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256780 18-Sep-2009 10:57 Send private message

But hey are not locked in? you can get tivo on any broadband service and still get the basic functionality.

And yes it is about consumer choice, in this case they can choose to go with telecom to get the benefit of downloadable content, they can choose mysky and get ondemand, they can choose to use the internet TVNZ ondemand, torrents etc, they can choose to go to video ezy down the road, they can choose to use fatso, the list goes on and on.

They are selling content and the market for content out there is quite exhaustive, it is the delivary mechanism that is the point of difference, and if people see benefit in that, then they can CHOOSE to go with telecom to get the other content




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

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  Reply # 256783 18-Sep-2009 11:03 Send private message

Balchy: Again, you see the entitlement complex come out.

Its like you guys need a wahhbulance!


+1.

If you really want TiVo swap to Telecom, or push your ISP to sign a similar partnership.




268 posts

Ultimate Geek


Reply # 256795 18-Sep-2009 11:27 Send private message

Seriously, can you guys honestly say that the current situation is better than if TiVo was ISP agnostic?

Balchy: I already acknowledged and mentioned many of the choices you listed.  But what has happened with TiVo here is reducing choice.

nate: Others have said that TiVo is not talking to other ISPs.  I suspect whatever deal they have made with Telecom is exclusive.  Also as I said, sometimes people have good reasons for not wanting to switch ISPs.  So tough luck to them eh?  In the end I suspect it's tough luck for TiVo as they are missing out on a sale.

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Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256796 18-Sep-2009 11:28 Send private message

crumpet, how is it reducing choice? it is providing additional choice by being another potential source for content...

But anyway, you have your opinion, and I have mine....we can just agree to disagree




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

268 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 256797 18-Sep-2009 11:36 Send private message

Balchy: crumpet, how is it reducing choice? it is providing additional choice by being another potential source for content...


If you want TiVo (full functionality) it reduces your choice of ISP to 1.

If you have a different ISP you can't have fully functioning TiVo.

They are restrictions on your freedom to purchase a product on it's independent merits.



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  Reply # 256799 18-Sep-2009 11:45 Send private message

friedCrumpet: Seriously, can you guys honestly say that the current situation is better than if TiVo was ISP agnostic?

Balchy: I already acknowledged and mentioned many of the choices you listed.  But what has happened with TiVo here is reducing choice.

nate: Others have said that TiVo is not talking to other ISPs.  I suspect whatever deal they have made with Telecom is exclusive.  Also as I said, sometimes people have good reasons for not wanting to switch ISPs.  So tough luck to them eh?  In the end I suspect it's tough luck for TiVo as they are missing out on a sale.



Better for whom?

 

We don’t know the details of Telecom’s agreement with TiVo so we can’t really say,  but hypothetically Telecom might refuse to provide unmetered downloading on TiVo if they didn’t have exclusivity.  Voda and Telstra might be forced to do the same if they have existing agreements with Sky that prevent them working with other TV distribution methods.  The remaining ISPs in the country amunt to less than 10% market share put together I would say.

 

What that would mean is,  if TiVo stood their ground and refused to sign an exclusive deal with Telecom, then it could mean that unmetered content is not available to anyone, or maybe only to customers of the smallest ISPs (who may not even have the free cash flow to build unmetering anyway)

 

Also, we don’t know, but maybe Telecom are subsidising the box just like they do with modems and cellphones?  Who knows, if they didn’t get the exclusive agreement then maybe the box price would be $1000+ given our small country's lack of bulk buying power?

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  Reply # 256801 18-Sep-2009 11:47 Send private message

All the download stuff is charged, waiting to see what rental costs of download movies/ programs before decide my interest. And quality of movies, read somewhere 1080p, not sure how they can do that on a 1.5 Mb/s data stream, not with a 10 minute wait to view any way.

Not into sports so currently paying around $70 a month sky startup/movies, so I'll compare what $70 pay per views would get on TiVo compared to mysky offerings.

Skys pay per view $7 movie way over top in my view, and no HD offerings on VOD. Plus if TiVo pay per views any good would rather have add free for content paid for, Pay for sky and still get adds, which I think is only about 2% of their revenue, would rather pay 2% more sub and have no adds.

Hope telecom as the band width so it doesn't slow their internet service down overall. Guessing the downloaded pay per views will appear on peoples telecom bills.

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