multiple providers

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mercutio

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Topic # 100116 3-Apr-2012 21:08
ok so with all these new applications of UFB etc, does that mean that normal customers of GPON fibre will be able to hookup to multiple different providers? and if so will there be different bandwidth allocations for each? and when is the target for gigabit to the home like is coming to other countries? 13 years ago i was thinking along the lines of the internet, thinking it'll be cool when we have (say) 10 megabit symmetric to the home, and can start to just share files between friends without having to go via the internet. i for one don't want to store files overseas, but would like my normal every day files at least replicated between more than one city in new zealand. of course it doesn't help that i'm not actually in a fibre area at the moment, and telecom don't enable annex-m, and that pretty much there a kind of enforced monopoly of kinds, that non-users subsidise. but say i move into a ufb area, and i know other people in ufb areas, it'd be cool to either have a cloud that lots of users can join into and just exchange data with each other. (with password protection, encryption etc for sensitive data, maybe storing key on a usb stick) or is ufb really just about the internet? back in the day of bbs's you could just tell the other person to type "ATA" and you call them. Or you could setup your line to send "ATA" and form a simple connection. now the data has to be charged per gig by some external provider. also the same holds true for VOIP lines. .. i think there's a seperate CIR for VOIP ? but Orcon being the only one to announce UFB plans and having a third-world level of service for their VOIP doesn't really interest me. in the first case i'm assuming people are meant to have a standard telephone line in combination with UFB if they use phones. and no phone line, or voip, if they just use cellphones.

sbiddle

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Reply # 604787 3-Apr-2012 21:20
Gigabit is already part of the Chorus and UFB Pricelist - Bitstream 4 starts at $455 per month excl + CIR costs which will set you back another $1000 for a 1Gbps CIR. You'll also need to add data costs onto that. And Gigabit to the home is certainly not yet the norm anywhere in the world, GPON is only 2.4Gbps with a 24 way splitter delivering 100Mbps CIR to 24 homes. *Need help configuring your Linksys ATA or IP Phones for New Zealand? Check my blog post

mercutio

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Reply # 604800 3-Apr-2012 21:34
sbiddle: Gigabit is already part of the Chorus and UFB Pricelist - Bitstream 4 starts at $455 per month excl + CIR costs which will set you back another $1000 for a 1Gbps CIR. You'll also need to add data costs onto that. And Gigabit to the home is certainly not yet the norm anywhere in the world, GPON is only 2.4Gbps with a 24 way splitter delivering 100Mbps CIR to 24 homes. Well you must remember that UFB is a 10 year plan, by that time home networks should be 10 gigabit. I'm actually surprised 10 gigabit has taken so long to drop in price. Unfortunately there is nothing in between. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/13/sardana_fibre_demonstration/ http://www.videotron.com/service/internet-services/internet-access/ultimate-120 So bitstream 4 is available for home users but starts at $455/month? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/technology/22iht-broadband22.html I think if we are to be technically forward country we should be aiming for gigabit to the home, even if shared. And I think even on gigabit connections 10 megabit cir is enough for casual use. The thing is - with burst and low pings things like remote desktops, vpns etc should actually go fast rather than laggy, unreponsive etc.. Then things like buffer bloat aren't as big a problem too :)

shanehobson

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Reply # 604861 4-Apr-2012 05:46
Yes, you can connect to multiple providers in your home, with different bandwidth on each one if you choose. You'll be on a gigabit PON from day 1, as the other poster said, it goes through a 24:1 splitter, so that capacity is shared. All end user traffic must exit the network on an ISP facing E-NNI port. The network won't pass traffic directly between end users, even if you are on the same ISP. This is sometimes called layer 2 isolation or split horizon. There are no data caps or per gigabyte charges at a wholesale level from the LFC to the ISP and so any per gig charging is entirely at the choice of the ISP. You are likely to see more ISPs zero rate selected traffic, such as national traffic or traffic to specific web sites. Yes, there is a generous amount of CIR allocated to each service and it is the ISP's choice (or the clever end user's choice) as to what traffic goes into the CIR allocation. The LFC doesn't determine which types of traffic should be treated as CIR vs EIR. Orcon isn't the only ISP offering phone service, WxC also offers VoIP and has signed with all four LFCs. I would expect there to be many more VoIP providers come online soon. We don't think it's likely that Bitstream 4 would be bought by home users. More likely a higher performance Bitstream 2 service if they require very high bandwidth. Bitstream 2 starts from $37.50 (wholesale + GST) for 30/10 and $55 for a 100/50 service (wholesale +GST). I should clarify the pricing, when you see the wholesale price here and you're thinking how much will retail be. Don't take the wholesale price, add a fair markup and call that retail. The ISP also has to provide internet service, billing, help desk etc, so the markups may be different from what is normally understood to be a wholesale / retail mark up. With Orcons pricing of around $75 inc GST in the market place, you can probably work backwards to deduce what their input wholesale price is from the LFC and then allocate the balance to the other things I mentioned. My opinions (TWEIE) are mine, not my employers. Any statements of fact are drawn from public sources.

maverick

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Reply # 604865 4-Apr-2012 06:45
Wondered how long before you turned up on here Shane :) Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

Zeon

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Reply # 604889 4-Apr-2012 08:54
Private links aren't really necessary for what you want to achieve, the internet does fine. Just setup IPSEC tunnels between the locations you want over the internet and bam you have a private network. One of my clients does this for 4 locations around the country and then pass more than 1.5TB between offices this way per month.

mercutio

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Reply # 604903 4-Apr-2012 09:17
shanehobson: Yes, you can connect to multiple providers in your home, with different bandwidth on each one if you choose. Cool. Is that presented like multiple vlans or what? You'll be on a gigabit PON from day 1, as the other poster said, it goes through a 24:1 splitter, so that capacity is shared. But can still peak at gigabit? All end user traffic must exit the network on an ISP facing E-NNI port. The network won't pass traffic directly between end users, even if you are on the same ISP. This is sometimes called layer 2 isolation or split horizon. Like telstraclear's cable network. There are no data caps or per gigabyte charges at a wholesale level from the LFC to the ISP and so any per gig charging is entirely at the choice of the ISP. You are likely to see more ISPs zero rate selected traffic, such as national traffic or traffic to specific web sites. Well really what I want to happen in such a situation is that traffic should be able to bypass the ISP and go direct to some destinations. Whether that's possible or not I don't know though. Like, for instance when businesses connect to Citylink they can peer with others at WIX, as well as being able to connect directly to their ISP. I do realise it's a bit more complicated as it's a nationwide network, and someone still has to pay for the traffic to get to the right place. At the same time, having more than one ISP could increase reliability. Although it gets complicated to decide which connection to use without BGP or such - an ISP could lose all or partial international transit - and yet still be reachable. But it could also blackhole your traffic due to transparent proxy issues, NAT, traffic shaping devices overloading etc etc. Yes, there is a generous amount of CIR allocated to each service and it is the ISP's choice (or the clever end user's choice) as to what traffic goes into the CIR allocation. The LFC doesn't determine which types of traffic should be treated as CIR vs EIR. Can traffic be marked to be part of the CIR? Orcon isn't the only ISP offering phone service, WxC also offers VoIP and has signed with all four LFCs. I would expect there to be many more VoIP providers come online soon. So as a home user could Orcon data with WxC voice over a separate PVC - or whatever they're calling it. We don't think it's likely that Bitstream 4 would be bought by home users. More likely a higher performance Bitstream 2 service if they require very high bandwidth. Bitstream 2 starts from $37.50 (wholesale + GST) for 30/10 and $55 for a 100/50 service (wholesale +GST). So is that bitstream 2 to the ufb provider or to the ISP? I should clarify the pricing, when you see the wholesale price here and you're thinking how much will retail be. Don't take the wholesale price, add a fair markup and call that retail. The ISP also has to provide internet service, billing, help desk etc, so the markups may be different from what is normally understood to be a wholesale / retail mark up. With Orcons pricing of around $75 inc GST in the market place, you can probably work backwards to deduce what their input wholesale price is from the LFC and then allocate the balance to the other things I mentioned. Orcon seem to be charging $110 for 100/50. (at the base cap limit of 30gb)

mercutio

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Reply # 604907 4-Apr-2012 09:19
Zeon: Private links aren't really necessary for what you want to achieve, the internet does fine. Just setup IPSEC tunnels between the locations you want over the internet and bam you have a private network. One of my clients does this for 4 locations around the country and then pass more than 1.5TB between offices this way per month. In theory, you could either go to becoming a reseller, have a handover link, and have a network connection at one office- share it between the 4, and get unmetered connections from your own locations. I'm not sure if it's cost beneficial, at least for 4 locations though. Orcon seems to be $234 for 1 TB data, which is enough for lots of users. And I'm assuming if that's not enough could get another circuit the same.

Zeon

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Reply # 604919 4-Apr-2012 09:34
mercutio: Zeon: Private links aren't really necessary for what you want to achieve, the internet does fine. Just setup IPSEC tunnels between the locations you want over the internet and bam you have a private network. One of my clients does this for 4 locations around the country and then pass more than 1.5TB between offices this way per month. In theory, you could either go to becoming a reseller, have a handover link, and have a network connection at one office- share it between the 4, and get unmetered connections from your own locations. I'm not sure if it's cost beneficial, at least for 4 locations though. Orcon seems to be $234 for 1 TB data, which is enough for lots of users. And I'm assuming if that's not enough could get another circuit the same. There will be ISPs out there that will build whatever you want including probably unmetered data over the same regional POP under UFB.