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Topic # 111527 6-Nov-2012 16:25 Send private message

My builder and I are trying to figure out if an outdoor recessed mains light fitting needs to have an IP rating.  The thing is the standard says recessed fittings with all wiring inside the ceiling is excluded, but if installed less than 3m above zone 1 or zone 2 (e.g. the zones next to and near a bath, shower, spa, pool, water feature, etc.) then it needs to be IPx4.  So what if the recessed fitting is installed in the soffit?  It is inside the ceiling space, but it is outside and it is also essentially a wet area.  We cannot find the answer in AS/NZS 3000:2000 A3 (2003), and the electrician seems to not be bothered to find out or look in the latest standard until I can point hit to a clause.  Google only comes up with results for insulation.

Is there someone that can help?  Thanks.




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  Reply # 713117 6-Nov-2012 19:49 Send private message

We used the bathroom ones that were whatever IP is needed for over the shower when doing it. Then had to bend stuff around to get the longer LED lamp to fit.




Richard rich.ms



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  Reply # 713120 6-Nov-2012 19:54 Send private message

The thing is the electrician already installed cheap fittings from Home Down Lights. If he change it from the 120mm to the 125mm version then there is an option to add a cover to make it IP44. But I need to find a bit of legislation, building code, or standard to say that an outdoor recessed light fitting must be IP rated. Without that there is no way he will change it. If all else fails then I'll do it myself, otherwise I can use only incandescent bulbs in it as it is exposed to the elements and insects.




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  Reply # 713340 7-Nov-2012 08:48 Send private message

Unfortunately that is another grey area in AS/NZS 3000 - the zones aren't related to all wet areas, but only ones that are cherry picked (pools bathrooms spas etc)

If I get a chance later today I will trawl 3000 and see if I can find a clause either way.

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  Reply # 713482 7-Nov-2012 12:53 Send private message

Okay... here is the information I can find.

The "enhanced Protection" against electric shock as laid out in Section 6 of AS/NZS 3000:2007 covers the specific damp areas mentioned in that section (Such as Bathrooms, Pools etc)

However refer to this clause: 6.1.2 (b)  "...Provide adequate protection against damage that might reasonably be expected from the presence of water or high humidity"

In this case we have a "fit-for-purpose" clause rather than a safety one (unusual in AS/NZS 3000)

Now the important part here is humidity. One could easily expect an outside area to be 'humid' especially in winter. Therefore an IP rated fitting is appropriate for this area to ensure protection against damage.

Whilst this isn't necessarily a safety consideration, it is included in AS/NZS 3000 and as such could be enforced were it to be interpreted this way.

-----

This is my best take on things, as the specific issue isn't addressed per se, however the fit for use clause seems designed to cover these gray areas.



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  Reply # 713605 7-Nov-2012 16:48 Send private message

Thanks, great stuff. I've also found the manufacturer states the 125mm fitting is "suitable for outdoor use with optional cover fitted". Obviously they will not state the 120mm fitting is not suitable, that would be bad for business, but they do say which one >is< suitable and that combined with the standard is key to the argument. That should give me enough to get the ball rolling.




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  Reply # 721914 23-Nov-2012 15:53 Send private message

I've told the builder essentially what was reported here, and that I've found the manufacturer states the IP rated fitting "is ideal for wet areas like bathrooms and soffits". I've heard nothing for almost 2 weeks, and today the electrician just came and replaced the fittings. To my surprise he replaced the cheap Home Down Light fittings with Philips LED fittings, no complaints at all. Not sure of the model number, but it is 15W LEDs (3x 5W) and 18W power consumption. Will look up the model later. Should be more than bright enough for outdoors!




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  Reply # 722050 23-Nov-2012 21:39 Send private message

Philips DN052B almost 1000 lumen and 45 degree (think this is off centre, not total). Retails for $70. Really nice light and equivalent to 2x 14 Watt CFL (according to box). First time took over 10 seconds to switch on (could have been 20), perhaps it does some kind of calibration, who knows. Hours later I've switched it on and it took about 2 seconds. Lights up our deck very well, will post a photo sometime. It's a neutral white.




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  Reply # 722055 23-Nov-2012 21:49 Send private message

Loads of the dimmable LEDs do that, they keep charge in the caps in them and turn off when they see the AC wave disappear, caps remain charged for ages so they start up fast the next time.

When I was looking at the philips, they had some nicely priced lamps if you were prepared to put up with warm white, but as soon as going to neutral or cool white they were in the 100's (this was at russells)




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  Reply # 722145 24-Nov-2012 07:44 Send private message

So far I could not find anything to say it is dimmable, but that makes sense. Also means it has an electrolytic capacitor because you do not get ceramic in a large value. This one is not warm white, but so far I can find it only at Eco Lighting and $70 but out of stock. Will have a look at Russell and others next time I go past there.

I think the fitting might be 45 degree but the way it is setup the light spreads more than 90 degree and lights up a 2m high fence which is 3m away.




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  Reply # 722148 24-Nov-2012 07:50 Send private message

Found them on TradeMe from someone I actually know via the local Volvo group. Philips SmartBright which also comes up at Ideal Electrical and other places.




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  Reply # 735219 19-Dec-2012 22:41 Send private message

Photos as promised (a while ago...):





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