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  Reply # 549163 24-Nov-2011 01:02 Send private message

codyc1515:
johnr:
Geektastic: I think the answer must be to allow handsets to roam on all available networks in NZ - so if you cannot use VF, and XT is under capacity, you can use that and vice versa.


Please tell me you are joking?

Would this not overload the other network think about the operating frequency of handsets and everything else that has to be considered,

They do this in the US, though, not necessarily for capacity but rather for coverage. As for frequencies it would either roam or it wouldn't, simple as that. It could also work out better money-wise for Vodafone as the XT phones would nearly always roam on Vodafone (due to the frequency differences) vs. Vodafone phones roaming on XT.


No they don't do this in the US no network on this planet would allow it to happen, Think of the variables in the radio planning and then transmission and RNC capacity,

John






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  Reply # 549173 24-Nov-2011 06:21 Send private message

Geektastic:
Zeon: Is it feasible for Vodafone to offer WiFi or the like which is much easier to deploy to supplement their data network? The exchange is fibre fed there so even a temporary HSNS connection should be able to cope?


It seems feasible to me.

No idea what a cell site costs, but I would say that with annual profits of $150+ million, another one around here somewhere ought not to be unaffordable!!


Except free WiFi won't fix the problem in this case which is a result (dare I mention it once again) the noise floor being hit.

WiFi offloading will help where there is inadequare capacity to support high speeds on backhaul, and to be able to offer speeds greater than 3.6Mbps which is still exceptionally common in the UK. In the case of Martinborough WiFi offloading would allow data to be used, however it wouldn't in any way change the fact that WCDMA services are unusable so you still wouldn't be able to call or TXT.

There is also the issue of how to deploy WiFi over such a large area - it's not a simple task.



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  Reply # 549174 24-Nov-2011 06:28 Send private message

Wifi at big events sounds like a business opportunity to me. Although like mobile, the dimensioning could be a challenge.

There is in fact pay as you go WIFI around the Martinborough town centre, but its cheaper to burn up your Mobile Data than pay for the 2 options available locally :)

Edit: Sbiddle beat me to it. Although if its smartphone to smartphone you can still call and text using Viber etc.



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  Reply # 549211 24-Nov-2011 09:13 Send private message

The funny thing is that VF in Oz already do National Roaming with other networks to extend coverage - this is from their website:


"Vodafone has a service that now extends our mobile network even further throughout rural and regional Australia. It's called National Roaming.

National Roaming is a service that sees us working with other network providers, to deliver you better mobile phone coverage in regional areas of Victoria and Tasmania. Click on the links below for Coverage Maps showing National Roaming coverage in Victoria and Tasmania:
Victoria Coverage Map
Tasmania Coverage Map
In areas where the Telstra GSM network complements our coverage, you can keep making and receiving mobile calls.

It?s part of our mission to find better ways to continue to improve our mobile phone coverage and yours."








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  Reply # 549215 24-Nov-2011 09:19 Send private message

That is a legacy from 3, not something that Vodafone Australia really wants people to use -- especially since it is a service that costs them heavily, just look at the pricing (90c/min) that's passed on to the end user.

National roaming in NZ would just result in people being surprised as hell when their phone ends up roaming and costing them big bucks. This is a known issue on country borders in e.g. Europe.



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  Reply # 549219 24-Nov-2011 09:32 Send private message

PenultimateHop: That is a legacy from 3, not something that Vodafone Australia really wants people to use -- especially since it is a service that costs them heavily, just look at the pricing (90c/min) that's passed on to the end user.

National roaming in NZ would just result in people being surprised as hell when their phone ends up roaming and costing them big bucks. This is a known issue on country borders in e.g. Europe.


It's not much of an issue in Europe any more as the EU has acted to prevent customers being ripped off when roaming within the EU.

For example the maximum charge for an incoming call for an EU customer within the EU is 11 Euro cents  a minute - about 20 NZ cents. Same charge for outgoing texts (incoming texts are free)

Maximum outgoing charge is 43 NZ cents per minute.

(figures are plus VAT at the rate in the phone user's home state) 








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  Reply # 549221 24-Nov-2011 09:37 Send private message

We have National Roaming here too.... where 2deg customers roam to the VF network where-there-is-no-2deg coverage. And thats pretty much the basis other carriers use in other countries too.

As for the $150m profit. It may be big or not (I don't know). But my point is it sound like a big number, because it is, but if t represents a 5% return on investment it's not.

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  Reply # 549223 24-Nov-2011 09:38 Send private message

Geektastic: It's not much of an issue in Europe any more as the EU has acted to prevent customers being ripped off when roaming within the EU.

For example the maximum charge for an incoming call for an EU customer within the EU is 11 Euro cents  a minute - about 20 NZ cents. Same charge for outgoing texts (incoming texts are free)

Maximum outgoing charge is 43 NZ cents per minute.

(figures are plus VAT at the rate in the phone user's home state) 

All of which are still much higher than you would be paying on your home network, with home plans.

You think that someone with a 2500 minute bundle is going to be happy to discover their one hour call is charged at 43c/min because they happened to be in a part of their office building where there's no Vodafone coverage and ended up on XT?

This assumes that the NZ operators can/will offer a service at that kind of price.

For the same reason I'd say it's still quite an issue* in Europe, or when on the US/Mexico or US/Canadian borders - I've had some fun there myself. Walk a few hundred feet down the street and get cheaper calls!

* yes I agree it's better than paying $1 or $2/min but it's still not much fun to discover it later. And given the number of noddies in the news who go to Australia and manage to spend $25,000 on roaming and then bleat they didn't know, you know this is begging for trouble in the domestic market.

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  Reply # 549241 24-Nov-2011 10:04 Send private message

PenultimateHop: That is a legacy from 3, not something that Vodafone Australia really wants people to use -- especially since it is a service that costs them heavily, just look at the pricing (90c/min) that's passed on to the end user.

National roaming in NZ would just result in people being surprised as hell when their phone ends up roaming and costing them big bucks. This is a known issue on country borders in e.g. Europe.



It's also a historical setup from the Federal Government funding of rural expansion circa 2000/2001. Some areas in particular (such as large sections of highway) were put out to tender and Vodafone won these. All carriers in Australia then set up national roaming agreements on these sections of highway.


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  Reply # 549255 24-Nov-2011 10:32 Send private message

johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
Geektastic: I think the answer must be to allow handsets to roam on all available networks in NZ - so if you cannot use VF, and XT is under capacity, you can use that and vice versa.


Please tell me you are joking?

Would this not overload the other network think about the operating frequency of handsets and everything else that has to be considered,

They do this in the US, though, not necessarily for capacity but rather for coverage. As for frequencies it would either roam or it wouldn't, simple as that. It could also work out better money-wise for Vodafone as the XT phones would nearly always roam on Vodafone (due to the frequency differences) vs. Vodafone phones roaming on XT.


No they don't do this in the US no network on this planet would allow it to happen, Think of the variables in the radio planning and then transmission and RNC capacity,

John



OK, maybe not in the US but somehow Vodafone Australia managed to do it and you can roam onto Telstra GSM. Also, 2degrees roams to and from Vodafone NZ, so I don't really see any reason that Vodafone NZ couldn't roam with Telecom NZ (if they wanted to make it happen, that is).

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  Reply # 549325 24-Nov-2011 12:04 Send private message

codyc1515: Also, 2degrees roams to and from Vodafone NZ...


Very different things. 2degrees BUYS capacity on Vodafone NZ. They don't do roaming on Vodafone NZ. They are actually exclusive areas - you can only use Vodafone from a 2degrees account when outside the main 2degrees coverage area.

If you are in a low 2degrees coverage area but still within the geographical region set in their agreement, too bad, you won't get any Vodafone service.

If it was a true roaming agreement then it would connect to Vodafone in cases of low coverage. That's not how it happens.




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  Reply # 549328 24-Nov-2011 12:06 Send private message

freitasm:
codyc1515: Also, 2degrees roams to and from Vodafone NZ...


Very different things. 2degrees BUYS capacity on Vodafone NZ. They don't do roaming on Vodafone NZ. They are actually exclusive areas - you can only use Vodafone from a 2degrees account when outside the main 2degrees coverage area.

If you are in a low 2degrees coverage area but still within the geographical region set in their agreement, too bad, you won't get any Vodafone service.

If it was a true roaming agreement then it would connect to Vodafone in cases of low coverage. That's not how it happens.

I wasn't meaning it from a technical perspective, rather, from a users perspective.

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  Reply # 549710 25-Nov-2011 00:25 Send private message


If Geektastic is correct and the event has been hosted with 12k visitors for the last 20 years, probably all with mobiles in the last 5-10 years, and the network has handled voice loads fine in previous years. Then wouldn't the solution to degrade the network a little more gracefully?

It seems to as sbiddle describes (and I redescribe it probably with far less grace) as being caused by high volume data slurping devices, some with chatty buggy data stacks, then shedding load, would be a good defensive measure for running a carriers network?

If the noise floor rises too much with to many devices talking too much, couldn't, and shouldn't? a carrier, step down the network to voice only which would shed load, so voice is preserved as a service?

As a customer if I had the choice of getting no bars, no voice or data, or being able to only place a telephone call, that would be better yes?

Am I not understanding some part of this, that prevents carriers doing this?




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  Reply # 549712 25-Nov-2011 00:34 Send private message

Did telecom or 2 degrees have problems? I am sure people who lived in he area who have a mobile instead of a landline wouldn't have been happy either. Must have also affected the bottom line that day, as not as many calls would have been going through.

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  Reply # 549730 25-Nov-2011 07:06 Send private message

Man I hope Vodafone are reading this thread. Obviously a lot of very knowledgeable people who could work in their mobile coverage and capacity dept.

I might apply in fact, it doesn't seem very hard at all.

I recently had some Internet problems at work*, I'm a network engineer too. Totally ignoring capital expenditure, return on investment, business cases and all those sorts of piddling little things (ha!) - How would I fix it? I'd probably just buy more routers and more bandwidth off everyone, yea?

Hey this could apply to everyone with slow and/or problematic Internet connections at home. Why don't you all just buy the most expensive plan that Telecom offers, you know a fibre to your home or something? You won't have any other household expenses to worry about I'm sure. Just buy more Internet! Problem solved!!!

My God. This is revolutionary.

* not really, just in case anyone that knows where I work reads this.

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