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1163 posts

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  Reply # 549945 25-Nov-2011 13:06

PenultimateHop: As a side note, I was in Wellington during the 7s this year. It was quite interesting how the mobile infrastructure crumbled (and the way in which it did it), especially given the 7s are known to happen each year.

I've been to the Big Day Out in Auckland, and the same thing.

Surprised? You bet.


 

What network though? There are now 3 different networks.

1163 posts

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  Reply # 549946 25-Nov-2011 13:06

PenultimateHop: As a side note, I was in Wellington during the 7s this year. It was quite interesting how the mobile infrastructure crumbled (and the way in which it did it), especially given the 7s are known to happen each year.

I've been to the Big Day Out in Auckland, and the same thing.

Surprised? You bet.


 

What network though? There are now 3 different networks.

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  Reply # 549947 25-Nov-2011 13:11 Send private message

robbyp:  What network though? There are now 3 different networks.

Not really germane to the sarcastic point I was attempting to make! "Various" - both with local devices (VFNZ, TNZ CDMA, TNZ XT) and with roaming devices on local networks (VFNZ, 2degrees), over the years.

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  Reply # 549959 25-Nov-2011 13:30 Send private message

Geektastic:[snip]
It may reach your standards of acceptable planning that that is allowed to happen, but it certainly does not meet mine. 


Just quickly browsed this thread and thought I'd add that the people on here that know what they are speaking about have shown great restraint.

Your expectation that VFs network should be available at all times, regardless of network loading demonstrates a failure to understand basic business practise, let alone the technical aspects in play here.

You as a customer are PERFECTLY ENTITLED to have this unrealistic expectation however, and you should make your decision about who to have as your mobile carrier based on how well they meet your expectations. What you shouldn't do is tell VF that because they make a profit, they should also provision for peak demand at all times. That's just not good practise.

If _everyone_ in the country however had your expectations, and was prepared to back them up with happily paying much more for the service, then the Telcos would improve peak capacity - however until that happens, investment will continue at a sustainable level.

TL;DR - If you don't like it, move to another provider. No guarantee they won't have the same issues though.

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 549962 25-Nov-2011 13:32

PenultimateHop:
robbyp:  What network though? There are now 3 different networks.

Not really germane to the sarcastic point I was attempting to make! "Various" - both with local devices (VFNZ, TNZ CDMA, TNZ XT) and with roaming devices on local networks (VFNZ, 2degrees), over the years.


 

If it had been telecom network problem during the 7's due to too many connections, I am sure it would have been the lead story on the tv news, as the media loves to beat them up. I have however never had any problems with them during events.

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  Reply # 549972 25-Nov-2011 13:42 Send private message

PenultimateHop: As a side note, I was in Wellington during the 7s this year. It was quite interesting how the mobile infrastructure crumbled (and the way in which it did it), especially given the 7s are known to happen each year.

I've been to the Big Day Out in Auckland, and the same thing.

Surprised? You bet.


And the cost to build out the new joint XT/VF network inside Eden Park to ensure it could cope had enough 0's on the end to probably guarantee that no other stadiums will get the same treatment!

 



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  Reply # 550125 25-Nov-2011 23:05 Send private message

"I think any marketer would tell you that announcing "our service will not meet your expectations" by the way of advertising and billboards is actually a bad idea, since it damages your brand to potential customers as well as customers that are not impacted. "

The one I am married to says not!

She says if that was the case, you would never hear about (for example) planned outages in the electricity industry, the rail industry or the airline industry.

Following your methodology, customers would be left to discover it when it happened....

I am pretty sure that if the trains into Auckland or Wellington were going to be unable to cope, the companies that run them would either make a big effort to ensure they did cope or they would do what they in fact do do - take out ads in the Dom Post or wherever warning customers that they might need to make alternative arrangements.








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  Reply # 550128 25-Nov-2011 23:10 Send private message

Geektastic: "I think any marketer would tell you that announcing "our service will not meet your expectations" by the way of advertising and billboards is actually a bad idea, since it damages your brand to potential customers as well as customers that are not impacted. "

The one I am married to says not!

She says if that was the case, you would never hear about (for example) planned outages in the electricity industry, the rail industry or the airline industry.

Following your methodology, customers would be left to discover it when it happened....

I don't recall any of those being marketed in a prominent/public manner - either in very quiet corners of newspapers (electricity, rail), or direct contact (airlines), if at all notified.

I've turned up to the airport on a few occasions to find I've been ticketed on flights that don't exist. I've certainly had electrical outages that weren't marketed in a prominent manner.  I've certainly been left to discover, and fend for myself within the terms of the contract I have with $vendor.

I also don't agree that this would be a planned outage.



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  Reply # 550137 25-Nov-2011 23:45 Send private message

PenultimateHop:
Geektastic: "I think any marketer would tell you that announcing "our service will not meet your expectations" by the way of advertising and billboards is actually a bad idea, since it damages your brand to potential customers as well as customers that are not impacted. "

The one I am married to says not!

She says if that was the case, you would never hear about (for example) planned outages in the electricity industry, the rail industry or the airline industry.

Following your methodology, customers would be left to discover it when it happened....

I don't recall any of those being marketed in a prominent/public manner - either in very quiet corners of newspapers (electricity, rail), or direct contact (airlines), if at all notified.

I've turned up to the airport on a few occasions to find I've been ticketed on flights that don't exist. I've certainly had electrical outages that weren't marketed in a prominent manner.  I've certainly been left to discover, and fend for myself within the terms of the contract I have with $vendor.

I also don't agree that this would be a planned outage.


I can assure you that rail operators - even in NZ - announce when they are going to be having known issues. As do airlines, electricity companies and most other similar businesses. Tranz Metro certainly take ads in the Dom Post and put up information posters, notices on their website and so on.

It is eminently foreseeable that if you know you have 10k people turning up in one place and you have (say) a 50% market share you could reasonably assume that 50% of them may have your phones.

This is a completely predictable event, with a known number of visitors, every year. It's as close to a planned outage as you could get when it is an outside event rather than maintenance , I would say.

As my old instructors used to say - P*ss Poor Planning Equals P*ss Poor Performance!

What amazes me more than anything is the number of people who are happy to accept it. I am at a loss to understand why mediocrity of service (in the wider meaning of service, not just the technical parts of the phone network) is deemed to be good enough. 








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  Reply # 550142 26-Nov-2011 00:28 Send private message

Geektastic: [snip]
What amazes me more than anything is the number of people who are happy to accept it. I am at a loss to understand why mediocrity of service (in the wider meaning of service, not just the technical parts of the phone network) is deemed to be good enough. 


Well, the well informed among us are prepared to accept (the pretty damn good actually) levels of service and coverage because we don't want to pay double, triple or even more for a service which works a tiny, TINY fraction better, or is built to handle peak loadings at individual locations once a year.

Now.... If you _REALLY_ ABSOLUTELY_ need coverage, I think there's still a couple of satellite phone vendors around that could sell you a solution that will work, even during Toast Martinborough... Fair warning though, it's not cheap.

As for the point about accepting the lack of warning - well, most people understand and accept that cell service will get congested in special cases... Major events, New Years eve etc - especially in places like Queenstown with a far higher concentration of users than normal... I for one accept all telcos not taking out full page ads warning of possible network congestion in the same way I accept that various councils don't take out ads warning of congestion on the motorways or city streets 5 days out of 7 days between 7:30am and 9am, and then, inexplicably from 5pm to about 6:30pm!

As I've previously said though - as a consumer you have the right to demand any level of service you want - and if there's a provider in the market that can satisfy those needs, you're doing YOURSELF a dis-service by not shifting to that provider.

And, just to spell it out completely... If there isn't a provider in the market that satisfies your requirements, you're either not a large enough market to attract a service targetted at your requirements, or you've identified a hole in the market offerings and you could make a killing by offering a service twice the price of all the others, but that will likely work when other networks are congested and unable to make calls.

Cheers - N

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  Reply # 550168 26-Nov-2011 07:06 Send private message

Geektastic: It is eminently foreseeable that if you know you have 10k people turning up in one place and you have (say) a 50% market share you could reasonably assume that 50% of them may have your phones. 

 


This is an exceptionally bad assumption - and using your assumption would lead to massive failings when predicting network loads.

You haven't factored in for example:

* Different age groups with who are with different companies - there are some very defining splits when it comes to network use for young and old. Who is the target market for your event?

* Where in the country is your event? And where in the country will people all be coming from? A local event in Auckland will have significantly more Vodafone users than Telecom because Vodafone is a stronger network. A concert in Auckland with large numbers of visitors from Dunedin will potentially have a greater number of Telecom users than Vodafone.

* Income for your target audience. It's pretty safe to say that those in higher income brackets typically spend more time on the phone, and have a greater chance of having a smartphone. An Android or iPhone connected to the network will cause significant increases in network signalling.

* Is the area within a 2degrees coverage area or not? If not you'll have increased load on the Vodafone network.

The current market share % of XT, Vodafone and 2degrees customers on a national basis would very rarely ever match up to the actual breakdown of customers at a typical event such as a concert, food festival or sporting event.




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  Reply # 550169 26-Nov-2011 07:13 Send private message

Geektastic: What amazes me more than anything is the number of people who are happy to accept it. I am at a loss to understand why mediocrity of service (in the wider meaning of service, not just the technical parts of the phone network) is deemed to be good enough. 


No, I'm not happy to accept it. That's where you're making an assumption that most of us would not agree with. I too get annoyed when things don't work, and would have been very annoyed had I been at Toast last weekend and had no service.

On the other hand I build wireless solutions for a job. I know why many things won't and don't work. I also know that in some cases there are no cost effective technical solution to solve these problems, and in the case of Toast know pretty much exactly why the network failed.




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  Reply # 550237 26-Nov-2011 10:55 Send private message

Geektastic: "I think any marketer would tell you that announcing "our service will not meet your expectations" by the way of advertising and billboards is actually a bad idea, since it damages your brand to potential customers as well as customers that are not impacted. "

The one I am married to says not!

She says if that was the case, you would never hear about (for example) planned outages in the electricity industry, the rail industry or the airline industry.

Following your methodology, customers would be left to discover it when it happened....


Planned outages vs unplanned outages are two totally different things.  The outage at Toast wasn't planned, if you think that's what people have been trying to tell you you're either really not understanding what we're writing or purposely ignoring it.

What you're suggesting is akin to Air New Zealand or JetStar taking out ads in the paper saying "Due to the upcoming Christmas peak time, our baggage and/or checkin systems might break down, please be prepared to sleep at the airport for at least 24 hours" - Please ask your wife why we don't see those.

No is is trying to suggest either that this is perfect acceptable.  It sucks when you can't get coverage at events like this.  You know it, I know it and Vodafone etc know it.  What we keep trying to explain is that they equally don't want this to happen.  But that, due to so many variables, it's impossible to plan unlimited capacity easily and cost effectively.  In exactly the same way that the airlines don't build extra airports, baggage handling systems and checking systems just to handle the chaos that is the Christmas period.

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  Reply # 550259 26-Nov-2011 11:28 Send private message

muppet: Planned outages vs unplanned outages are two totally different things.  The outage at Toast wasn't planned, if you think that's what people have been trying to tell you you're either really not understanding what we're writing or purposely ignoring it.

What you're suggesting is akin to Air New Zealand or JetStar taking out ads in the paper saying "Due to the upcoming Christmas peak time, our baggage and/or checkin systems might break down, please be prepared to sleep at the airport for at least 24 hours" - Please ask your wife why we don't see those.

No is is trying to suggest either that this is perfect acceptable.  It sucks when you can't get coverage at events like this.  You know it, I know it and Vodafone etc know it.  What we keep trying to explain is that they equally don't want this to happen.  But that, due to so many variables, it's impossible to plan unlimited capacity easily and cost effectively.  In exactly the same way that the airlines don't build extra airports, baggage handling systems and checking systems just to handle the chaos that is the Christmas period.

Exactly. Well said.

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  Reply # 554313 6-Dec-2011 08:31 Send private message

Just a FYI

Martinborough 3G cell got upgraded early this morning capacity and speed




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