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Topic # 95338 31-Dec-2011 09:49 Send private message

From the stuff website...

A Telstraclear customer says $1500 was stolen after she gave credit card details to TelstraClear call centre staff in the Philippines...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6200629/Telstraclear-customer-claims-card-fraud

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  Reply # 563157 31-Dec-2011 10:34 Send private message

Wouldn't be the first case of a credit card being frauded from overseas or even NZ call centre staff

If she's used it anywhere on the net at all, someone could have got it that way.  Or a petrol station, restaurant, pretty much anywhere where she left the card out of her site.

Easy fix though, Mastercard, Visa and Amex all have pretty good policies on stolen money, 1-2 days later and it's usually back in your account




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  Reply # 563162 31-Dec-2011 10:42 Send private message

While it seems in this case based upon that story that the response from TCL may have been less than stellar, at the end of the day I don't agree with the customers claims that TCL should be refunding her the money. That is the bank's job once she launches a fraud complaint with the bank.

The credit card company following through with a fraud complain will have far greater implications.


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  Reply # 563166 31-Dec-2011 10:48 Send private message

vinnieg: If she's used it anywhere on the net at all, someone could have got it that way.  


I would have thought that all reputable online retailers would have their e-commerce systems wired up in such a way that credit card payments would be processed without card details being seen by staff, or stored anywhere. In fact I'm pretty sure that this would be a requirement for PCI compliance.

Personally I think this highlights the additional risk of making a credit card payment on the phone versus doing it online.


Or a petrol station, restaurant, pretty much anywhere where she left the card out of her site.


That's fair enough, but personally I try to avoid ever letting my card out of my sight. The exception would be on rare occasions at fancy restaurants where they expect you to insert your credit card into a folio so that they can take it away and process the payment.

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  Reply # 563171 31-Dec-2011 10:59 Send private message

As sbiddle says, it's not TelstraClear who should refund any money (since money didn't go into their accounts), but the credit card company that should be contacted for this.

The whole story smells of "overseas call centres are bad. Grab the pitchforks!"




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  Reply # 563174 31-Dec-2011 11:06 Send private message

alasta: That's fair enough, but personally I try to avoid ever letting my card out of my sight. The exception would be on rare occasions at fancy restaurants where they expect you to insert your credit card into a folio so that they can take it away and process the payment.


And even that can't happen now - since with a chip card a PIN is mandatory unless the terminal is a NFC one and supports pinless transactions, such as at McDonalds. Most restaurants either bringing terminals to the table, or you have to pay at the counter.


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  Reply # 563178 31-Dec-2011 11:24 Send private message

alasta: 
Personally I think this highlights the additional risk of making a credit card payment on the phone versus doing it online.



Totally agree, I cringe when someone asks me to pay over the phone and usually ask for direct deposit info instead 




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  Reply # 563185 31-Dec-2011 11:31 Send private message

sbiddle: And even that can't happen now - since with a chip card a PIN is mandatory unless the terminal is a NFC one and supports pinless transactions, such as at McDonalds.?Most restaurants either bringing terminals?to the table, or you have to pay at the counter.



I have processed many transactions on an eftpos terminal where the customer pressed the enter key straight after pressing the 'credit' account button on the keypad. I do get the option to skip pin entry 'yes or no' on the terminal of course but pressing 'yes' prints out a receipt for the customer to sign on to just like AMEX cards.




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  Reply # 563193 31-Dec-2011 11:59 Send private message

IMHO this is tabloid journalism that Fairfax seem to be doing more and more of.

Yes, it's wrong. TelstraClear have acted but it is reported in such a way by Stuff that it reflects somewhat negatively on the 'big corporate' but again IMHO Stuff (and other media) can be rather economical with the whole truth and presenting both sides of the story. The woman will most probably get her money back. Why is this newsworthy.

Further, Stuff reports that the woman's daughter is "a crime prevention manager for the Kapiti Coast, working for the Kapiti Safer Community Trust." - why/how is that relevant to the article.

Edited: grammar (note to self - proofread before hitting submit button)





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  Reply # 563209 31-Dec-2011 12:53 Send private message

sbiddle: ...the response from TCL may have been less than stellar...


floydbloke:... "a crime prevention manager for the Kapiti Coast, working for the Kapiti Safer Community Trust." - why/how is that relevant to the article.


freitasm:  The whole story smells of "overseas call centres are bad. Grab the pitchforks!"




...do I really need to do pretty graphs and charts as well?

Credit Cards.

The term everyone is looking for is 'Charge back'.  If your credit card gets bill for something you weren't expecting then you just call your bank and request a 'Charge back' be done.  It takes about a month to 6 weeks to process.

Credit Card Safety

Use a debt card for bill payments with call centers and the internet, or a credit card with a very small limit so that you can't get $1,500 whacked on your account in one go.

Also talk to your bank about their card policies.  Some banks block overseas transactions without getting authorisation from you first.

Seems to me in this case that this woman needs to be having a bit of a chat with her bank as well about the sort of policies that they've applied to her account.






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  Reply # 563211 31-Dec-2011 13:00 Send private message

You are assuming that we are implicitly supporting overseas call centres. We are all actually saying that the story itself is explicitly making overseas call centres evil. Very different things.

Debt cards will only be "safe" if they are prepaid. If they are debt cards linked to your bank account then you basically have an infinite source of funds to the card, limited to your bank account balance and/or limits. Devt cards are not inherently safer than credit cards.




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  Reply # 563214 31-Dec-2011 13:13 Send private message

freitasm: Debt cards will only be "safe" if they are prepaid. If they are debt cards linked to your bank account then you basically have an infinite source of funds to the card, limited to your bank account balance and/or limits. Devt cards are not inherently safer than credit cards.


Yes, sorry, I'm glad someone picked that one up.

What I meant was use a debt card linked to an account with only very limited funds in it. 

For our businesses we have about 3 or 4 cards now which we use in different places and we just put money across to them as we make purchases.  You'd be luck to push $100 on to one of my cards now.

freitasm: You are assuming that we are implicitly supporting overseas call centres. We are all actually saying that the story itself is explicitly making overseas call centres evil. Very different things.


No, I was agreeing with your point that the Fairfax article does seem to be a beat up on the evil over seas call center and linking in a diagram I drew up a while back and posted on GZ.

As for implicitly supporting overseas call centers, yes we are.  By buying from Telstra, we are putting OCC employment ahead of local employment.

Personally that's not something I feel good about.  When I joined Telstra the employment was local and it was one of my reasons for joining. 

Today they are the only provider in my area that has the sort of network that they do.  I can't get VDSL, Chorus didn't install it in my local exchange according to the government map other wise I would have changed.

To change to ADSL2+ (which is suspect would only just get the 10/x min the govt set because of the 60 year old copper in my street) would cost me more money than I feel I can afford on this principle.

Shouting at Telstra is like shouting at the rain.

Posting on GeekZone is like shouting at Telstra, but at least it leaves me with a feeling that I've expressed my view.

The question is what to do about it?







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  Reply # 563215 31-Dec-2011 13:15 Send private message

The discussion has nothing to do with call centre location, but with security of payment over telephone and the reaction of merchants when confronted with an error/problem created by an employee of theirs or contracted company.





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  Reply # 563218 31-Dec-2011 13:18 Send private message

freitasm: You are assuming that we are implicitly supporting overseas call centres. We are all actually saying that the story itself is explicitly making overseas call centres evil. Very different things.

Debt cards will only be "safe" if they are prepaid. If they are debt cards linked to your bank account then you basically have an infinite source of funds to the card, limited to your bank account balance and/or limits. Devt cards are not inherently safer than credit cards.

I agree, it is in fact possible to get overdrawn on a Visa Debit card (on Westpac, at least) but thats a whole different story...

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Reply # 563225 31-Dec-2011 13:30 Send private message

DonGould: Credit Card Safety

Use a debt card for bill payments with call centers and the internet, or a credit card with a very small limit so that you can't get $1,500 whacked on your account in one go.

I can't work out if you are joking or trolling with this statement! Sorry if I'm appearing harsh - but that is the worst advise you could give IMO.  

A debit card is the worst card you can use for a non face-to-face transaction.  When fraud is actioned on the card - it comes directly from your own account - YOUR money.  At least with a credit card the fraud happens on someone elses money and the proof in a charge back is on the retailer that YOU purchased the goods. 

Normally incorrect/fraud can be sorted out even before you have to pay your bill.  If you are like me and check your accounts at least weekly then you could even sort it before you get the bill.

Are you suggesting that you have multiple credit cards - each with different credit limits - one for normal purchases and one for internet purchases? 

The credit card companies have some good analysis tools under their belt - I got a phone call from Mastercard on Christmas eve whilst I was renewing my Flickr account - they determined it was an unusual transaction (the pre-authorisation test amount) and phoned me on my mobile (which I missed) and then on my home number.  I confirmed it was real and he flagged the transaction as safe.




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  Reply # 563226 31-Dec-2011 13:31 Send private message

freitasm: The discussion has nothing to do with call centre location, but with security of payment over telephone and the reaction of merchants when confronted with an error/problem created by an employee of theirs or contracted company.


Which brings us to the question of making purchases from New Zealand based business then.

If this 'staff member' had been based in New Zealand then it's a matter that could have been put in the hands of the New Zealand police service.

Security has to come on many levels and everyone has to take some ownership.

This woman didn't.  She give her credit details to an overseas company and then had a waaa waaa at the media when things went wrong.

She used a credit card which quite clearly had a large limit on it with a large amount of free credit space on it.

What's more, she got all upset at the merchant but cancelled her service with the bank, what's with that?

Did she cancel her services with the merchant?






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