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  Reply # 563232 31-Dec-2011 13:39 Send private message

sbiddle:
alasta: That's fair enough, but personally I try to avoid ever letting my card out of my sight. The exception would be on rare occasions at fancy restaurants where they expect you to insert your credit card into a folio so that they can take it away and process the payment.


And even that can't happen now - since with a chip card a PIN is mandatory unless the terminal is a NFC one and supports pinless transactions, such as at McDonalds. Most restaurants either bringing terminals to the table, or you have to pay at the counter.


There's an interesting addition to my phobia of NFC - the waiter could still take your card and tap it for you as a pinless transaction (I only eat at cheap resaurants where the bill would likely be under $70).  I know I'm Off Topic and this has been discussed ad nauseum but just another example of payment without challenge.

Anyway back on topic.  I agree TCL have been made out as the criminal in this case.  Realistically all they could do is provide the police/credit card company any and all evidence to ensure this lady gets her money back.  Unfortunately, scum work everywhere - short of every employer asking for a police check for all employees there is not much that can be done.  Imagine the outcry if they did! 




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  Reply # 563248 31-Dec-2011 14:28 Send private message

StarBlazer: I agree TCL have been made out as the criminal in this case.  Realistically all they could do is provide the police/credit card company any and all evidence to ensure this lady gets her money back.


I agree, TCL do seem to have been made out to look like the bad guys in that article.

If this had happened in my company I would like to think I would have:

* Asked my customer who her bank was.
* Made contact with my bank to ask them to put their support behind getting a charge back.
* Made contact with her bank to fully understand what their policies were with regard to getting a charge back.
* With her permission, asked her bank to process a charge back and drafted a letter to her bank, on her behalf asking them to keep us both informed as to the progress of said work.
* Reviewed our call logs to identify who had processed the customers call.
* Made contact with local police and assisted my customer to lay a complaint with police about the fraud.
* Followed up with the customers bank to understand what fraud action they had taken with the merchant account who charged the $1500 against my customers card.
* Followed up with the banking onwardsman to understand what industry was doing about better fraud education with customers.



 




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  Reply # 563289 31-Dec-2011 16:50 Send private message

DonGould:Security has to come on many levels and everyone has to take some ownership.

This woman didn't.  She give her credit details to an overseas company and then had a waaa waaa at the media when things went wrong.

She used a credit card which quite clearly had a large limit on it with a large amount of free credit space on it. 


DonGould - sorry if I appear to be getting at you - but again seriously?  She didn't give her credit details to an "overseas company".  I, like she, when contacting the TCL customer services for whatever reason, would not think twice about giving my credit card.  I, as most people, would expect that if TCL have passed their operation over to an offshore company, that they would have placed some vetting to the organisation to protect their name.

If your bank and the vendor who you purchased from refused to assist - would you not also go "waaa waaa" to whoever you thought could help and was prepared to listen. 




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  Reply # 563305 31-Dec-2011 17:27 Send private message

StarBlazer: DonGould - sorry if I appear to be getting at you - but again seriously? 


See this is what I like about discussion forums.  No, I don't feel like you're getting at me.  If feels like you're discussing what is clearly a complex issue and have concern about a few of the comments I've made, which is a good thing considering the mess that's unfolded! :)

StarBlazer: She didn't give her credit details to an "overseas company". 


http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/company-info/about-telstraclear.cfm - "Better still, we have the backing of and are wholly owned by Telstra Corporation Limited, Australia’s largest telecommunications company."

So yes she did give her details to an overseas company.  It's owned by an Australian company and the front lines staff she was dealing with are in Manilla.

StarBlazer: I, like she, when contacting the TCL customer services for whatever reason, would not think twice about giving my credit card.


In the past, so would I.  I'll be thinking more carefully now.  I can't afford a $1500 CC bill.

StarBlazer:  I, as most people, would expect that if TCL have passed their operation over to an offshore company, that they would have placed some vetting to the organisation to protect their name.


Also agreed.  But clearly it didn't pan out that way in this case.  A problem with vetting is that you can only vet based on history.  So if the staff member has never had issues in the past then what do you do?

I can see this as being a 1st/3rd world problem/issue.  Rich/Poor? 

If I was working for 25c an hour/$20 a week, and taking calls from people calls from people complaining about $30 credits - a week and a half of my wages...  then I guess I'd get warn down and tempted, isn't that human nature?  If I was earning $80k then I'd be a lot less tempted even if working with tens of millions of dollars (which I have in the past personally). 

Telstra moved their call center Manilla because of the savings as I understand it.  To the tune of millions of dollars.

I guess that in theory this should translate to cheaper services for us, but it would seem it's also going to translate to higher CC card fees to cover this sort of things?

StarBlazer: If your bank and the vendor who you purchased from refused to assist - would you not also go "waaa waaa" to whoever you thought could help and was prepared to listen.


Yes you've raised some interesting points here.  I'd really like to know who the bank is.  I'm also going to be calling Kiwibank next week to better understand how our debt cards work given a number of the comments that have been made here already.






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  Reply # 563307 31-Dec-2011 17:34 Send private message

DonGould: 
StarBlazer: She didn't give her credit details to an "overseas company". 
 

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/company-info/about-telstraclear.cfm - "Better still, we have the backing of and are wholly owned by Telstra Corporation Limited, Australia’s largest telecommunications company." 

So yes she did give her details to an overseas company.  It's owned by an Australian company and the front lines staff she was dealing with are in Manilla. 


TelstraClear Limited
is a New Zealand limited company. For all effects it must trade as one, regardless of majority shareholders. It follows the laws of the land and abides to them.







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  Reply # 563314 31-Dec-2011 17:43 Send private message

freitasm: TelstraClear Limited is a New Zealand limited company. For all effects it must trade as one, regardless of majority shareholders. It follows the laws of the land and abides to them.


I really don't follow what bearing that has on this case?

If Joe Smith works for $NZOwnedApplianceStore, see's I've just bought a $3,000 dollar TV, gets my address off the layby docket and then breaks into my home and takes the TV, has $NZOwnedApplianceStore actually done anything wrong?  Should $NZOwnedApplianceStore give me a credit for the TV as it was a member of their staff that took the TV?  Should I just lodge an insurance claim and talk to $NZOwnedApplianceStore about a discount on the replacement to perhaps off set the excess?

I don't think TelstraClear Limited has operated outside the law in this case, and in fact I agree they've been held up but the Stuff as the bad guy without presenting balanced information about the bank who left their customer with the impression she had no recourse to get her money back, at least that's the impression I got from reading the Stuff article.








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  Reply # 563315 31-Dec-2011 17:45 Send private message

My comment about TelstraClear Ltd being a New Zealand has as much bearing in this case as YOUR previous comment of TelstraClear Ltd being a foreign company because Telstra is the majority shareholder.

Basically it's nothing to do with this case, as most of your comments so far. Got it now? Your comments are so off topic that it burns.





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  Reply # 563316 31-Dec-2011 17:48 Send private message

DonGould: I don't think TelstraClear Limited has operated outside the law in this case, and in fact I agree they've been held up but the Stuff as the bad guy without presenting balanced information about the bank who left their customer with the impression she had no recourse to get her money back, at least that's the impression I got from reading the Stuff article.



So why then are you going out of your way to making a case of the company using an overseas call centre, of the company being an Australian company, and so? If you agree with people here that the company has done nothing wrong, why extend this with so much off topic comments?




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  Reply # 563321 31-Dec-2011 18:04 Send private message

freitasm: so much off topic comments?


Ok, I'm just going to shut up on this one now.  I don't really follow what the topic of this thread is.  That's 3 warnings that I'm missed the point.

Happy new year everyone! :)





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  Reply # 563365 31-Dec-2011 21:12 Send private message

freitasm: As sbiddle says, it's not TelstraClear who should refund any money (since money didn't go into their accounts), but the credit card company that should be contacted for this.

Hold on, no. Although the card company is who you go to in the first instance here, because credit cards are special and you have a contractual mechanism for it, when Telstra's employees steal from you in the course of their job Telstra is absolutely responsible and should be ensuring you are made whole. If I go into their physical shop to buy something and hand over cash to their staff, who pocket it, Telstra don't get to disclaim responsibility for it. They can take it up with the employee themselves if they want to, but that's not my problem to deal with. They especially don't get to disclaim it in this case since it is a straightforward Privacy Act breach committed by TelstraClear. It's not reasonable to treat this as somehow the victim's fault or mock them for supposed poor security practices, and it's not reasonable to act as though it's not Telstra's responsibility, because it is.

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  Reply # 563617 1-Jan-2012 22:54 Send private message

sbiddle:
alasta: That's fair enough, but personally I try to avoid ever letting my card out of my sight. The exception would be on rare occasions at fancy restaurants where they expect you to insert your credit card into a folio so that they can take it away and process the payment.


And even that can't happen now - since with a chip card a PIN is mandatory unless the terminal is a NFC one and supports pinless transactions, such as at McDonalds. Most restaurants either bringing terminals to the table, or you have to pay at the counter.



if the PIN is mandatory for chip cards, why do so many machines throw up a "bypass PIN" screen...  




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  Reply # 563635 2-Jan-2012 00:39 Send private message

it's pretty dodgy giving your credit card details over to some random overseas who is on a low wage,. pretty much if telstraclear are going to have their financial department overseas it'd be prudent to discontinue business with them.

i wonder if minimum wage should include hiring overseas people?

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  Reply # 563636 2-Jan-2012 00:44 Send private message

StarBlazer:
DonGould: Credit Card Safety

Use a debt card for bill payments with call centers and the internet, or a credit card with a very small limit so that you can't get $1,500 whacked on your account in one go.

I can't work out if you are joking or trolling with this statement! Sorry if I'm appearing harsh - but that is the worst advise you could give IMO.  

A debit card is the worst card you can use for a non face-to-face transaction.  When fraud is actioned on the card - it comes directly from your own account - YOUR money.  .


I have a separate account thats linked to my debit card, I just transfer money from my main account to this separate account when I want to use it online.
  

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  Reply # 563637 2-Jan-2012 01:22 Send private message

Everyone has an opinion over here.

Let's say, fine, that stupid whoever he was committed the crime but the main points in here are mainly how's that customer can get her dollars back; who's the real culprit and how's that guy will be reprimanded; investigations of the bank, & merchant involve; and what we can do to have a safer transaction with merchants regardless of the location of people we are dealing with (call centre staffs).


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  Reply # 563640 2-Jan-2012 02:23 Send private message

I know my fianc?'s ASB credit card has some sort of location security on it as we battled to get accommodation and car rental paid for in Australia over the phone. We had to call up ASB to get them to authorize each overseas transaction which was not physically being swiped.

It has to be asked why Telstraclear is taking CC details over the phone anyway, surly there is a secure online portal where customers can setup monthly payment via CC by themselves? I know we do that.







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