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  Reply # 666014 2-Aug-2012 11:31 Send private message

freitasm: 
He's not censoring. If he had been censoring some posts would "magically" disappear. He's just giving his opinion.

Just because his opinion is different than yours it doesn't mean he's censoring.



This is what they said...

"Oh look, you brought the "bearing and raising children" BS into it after I asked everyone not to. "

That is not an opinion, it is an order  (and using foul language) that people not mention children.

Children are relevant to marriage in my opinion. 







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  Reply # 666016 2-Aug-2012 11:32 Send private message

Skolink:
KevinL:
As stated previously, even if civil unions and marriages both had the right to adopt, unfortunately civil unions would always be considered the lesser of the two (particularly in the international community).  Moreover, if they are both exactly the same in terms of rights, why not call them the same thing?


If they are exactly the same in terms of rights, but are different, why not call them different things? Why are some people insisting that a relationship between a gay couple is also called marriage?
You mention overseas perceptions, but from a legal perspective, a same-sex marriage won't be recognised in another country that does not have same-sex marriage(or civil union).



Sorry to break this to you but gay relationships and straight relationships are exactly the same appart from the gender aspect. There is love, there is commitment, there is everything you'd expect from a relationship. So why should they be called different things? Because yourreligion says so?





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  Reply # 666017 2-Aug-2012 11:33 Send private message

menabassily: Simple question here: What's better for a kid, gay couple parents, or no parents at all??

Is that really the choice here? I understood it was very hard to adopt children in New Zealand (couples wonting children exceeds the number of children put up for adoption).

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  Reply # 666018 2-Aug-2012 11:35 Send private message

menabassily: Ok, I lost track of what's happening here, can we adopt this technique to help clarify things again:

Gay Marriage, if you were to vote. Yay or Nay.

Points you are basing your decision on:
1-
2-
3-


I'm in favour

1 - Laws generally exist to protect people from harm
2- Gays getting married will harm nobody (not even the children)
3- Gays not being allowed to marry harms them

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  Reply # 666019 2-Aug-2012 11:37 Send private message

tardtasticx: Sorry to break this to you but gay relationships and straight relationships are exactly the same appart from the gender aspect. There is love, there is commitment, there is everything you'd expect from a relationship. So why should they be called different things? Because yourreligion says so?

Being married myself I just can't see how they could be exactly the same, unless one in the couple takes on the role similar to a man, and one a role similar to a woman. I am not disputing your point with regard to love and commitment. I disagree that the two relationships are identical.

EDIT: On reflection perhaps by "apart from the gender aspect" you were referring to the roles each plays in a relationship. But that would still support my point that they are not "exactly the same".

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  Reply # 666020 2-Aug-2012 11:40 Send private message

Skolink:
menabassily: Simple question here: What's better for a kid, gay couple parents, or no parents at all??

Is that really the choice here? I understood it was very hard to adopt children in New Zealand (couples wonting children exceeds the number of children put up for adoption).


Let's just imagine a situation when this is not true (the stats of NZ adoption). What's your answer going to be?

Don't forget that by allowing gay marriage in NZ, other countries might follow.



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  Reply # 666021 2-Aug-2012 11:41 Send private message

Skolink:
tardtasticx: Sorry to break this to you but gay relationships and straight relationships are exactly the same appart from the gender aspect. There is love, there is commitment, there is everything you'd expect from a relationship. So why should they be called different things? Because yourreligion says so?

Being married myself I just can't see how they could be exactly the same, unless one in the couple takes on the role similar to a man, and one a role similar to a woman. I am not disputing your point with regard to love and commitment. I disagree that the two relationships are identical.


In this day and age, male and female roles are completely irrelevant, unless you're stuck with themindset that ladies should stay at home, clean the house and cook dinner while the man goes to work and pays the bills. My family is not like this at all. My mum earns more than my dad, dad does all the cooking, yet look at me, I'm not broken. I study architecture, I can drive, have my own relationships, work, all the things a normal human can do. 

When I go on dates with the gu. I'm dating, we don't have male or female roles. We either split the bill or take turns paying. Simple as that. No male pays for both, because we are both males. Or if one wants to and the other cant, they pay or whatever. It's not rocket science. 





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Sam, Auckland 
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  Reply # 666022 2-Aug-2012 11:41 Send private message

Skolink:
KevinL:
As stated previously, even if civil unions and marriages both had the right to adopt, unfortunately civil unions would always be considered the lesser of the two (particularly in the international community).  Moreover, if they are both exactly the same in terms of rights, why not call them the same thing?


If they are exactly the same in terms of rights, but are different, why not call them different things? Why are some people insisting that a relationship between a gay couple is also called marriage? .


Because that's what it is? Why not let them be called the same thing?
As far as i'm concerned, the only difference between an opposite sex marriage and same sex marriage are the genders of the people involved but they're fundamentally the same thing. So call it marriage.


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  Reply # 666024 2-Aug-2012 11:44 Send private message

menabassily:
menabassily: Ok, I lost track of what's happening here, can we adopt this technique to help clarify things again:

Gay Marriage, if you were to vote. Yay or Nay.

Points you are basing your decision on:
1-
2-
3-


Cool, let me start:

I agree.

Why:

1. Gay couple will benefit from the "Possibly better legal recognition of the relationship overseas".
2. The ability to adopt, many kids need a loving family.
3. Having the same title/term as for a Male-Female relationship, (and therefore changing the perception of a 'lesser' relationship?)

Thanks to Skolink.

Skolink: So the reasons for gay marriage rather than civil union are

1. Possibly better legal recognition of the relationship overseas
2. The ability to adopt
3. Having the same title/term as for a Male-Female relationship, (and therefore changing the perception of a 'lesser' relationship?)

Were there any others mentioned? Any other legal entitlements that civil union does not have, but marriage does?


Forgot to mention one more thing:
4- Allowing gay marriage in NZ will probably help the country's economy, as many couple from overseas will come to NZ to get married. 

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  Reply # 666025 2-Aug-2012 11:44 Send private message

BlueShift:
menabassily: Ok, I lost track of what's happening here, can we adopt this technique to help clarify things again:

Gay Marriage, if you were to vote. Yay or Nay.

Points you are basing your decision on:
1-
2-
3-


I'm in favour

1 - Laws generally exist to protect people from harm
2- Gays getting married will harm nobody (not even the children)
3- Gays not being allowed to marry harms them


Can you please expand on point 3. What harm is caused?

Is it beacuse people 'look down' on them for having a Civil Union rather than a Marriage? If this is tha case surely gay people do not wish to hide the fact that they are in a gay relationship.

The only other harm I can think of is not being allowed to adopt.

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  Reply # 666026 2-Aug-2012 11:45

Skolink:
tardtasticx: Sorry to break this to you but gay relationships and straight relationships are exactly the same appart from the gender aspect. There is love, there is commitment, there is everything you'd expect from a relationship. So why should they be called different things? Because yourreligion says so?

Being married myself I just can't see how they could be exactly the same, unless one in the couple takes on the role similar to a man, and one a role similar to a woman. I am not disputing your point with regard to love and commitment. I disagree that the two relationships are identical.

EDIT: On reflection perhaps by "apart from the gender aspect" you were referring to the roles each plays in a relationship. But that would still support my point that they are not "exactly the same".


Having been married as well, I think you're being remarkably closed minded.  I don't believe traditional gender roles are at all important.  I suppose you are opposed to home-husbands as well?  The gender of the two individuals has nothing to do with the quality of the relationship and they are for all intents and purposes -exactly- the same as defined by law.

This may be different from what you personally define as marriage, but the important thing is that the law affects everyone, but your personal/religious views only affect those who share your beliefs.

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  Reply # 666028 2-Aug-2012 11:47 Send private message

menabassily: Forgot to mention one more thing:
4- Allowing gay marriage in NZ will probably help the country's economy, as many couple from overseas will come to NZ to get married. 


But would the marriage be recognised at home? If not, why not just have a ceremony at home, rather than spend all that money coming to NZ and get a worthless piece of paper from this state?

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  Reply # 666029 2-Aug-2012 11:47 Send private message


Gay Marriage, I vote Nay.

There are actually two separate issues here. The rights for gay couples to adopt, and the right to use the term. "marriage". I vote Nay to both.

Points I'm basing my decision on:
1- Because the definition of the word "marriage" is man and woman. Husband and wife.
2- Its no good if we change the definition of the word here in NZ and Gay marriages are not recognised elsewhere. Moving to Aus for example, your marriage is not recognised, how many thousands of kiwis move to Aus every year? Those that do will still feel discriminated. Only a few countries recognise Gay Marriage.
3- We should be fighting for equal rights for Gay and Lesbian couples, not redefining a word for a minority.
4- Legalise Gay Marriage, the churches will be next to be targeted. There will always be discrimination, like it or not.
5- A child (yes we have to discuss this) brought up in a gay household may grow up thinking this is normal. Its not a normal.
6- Gay men for example will never be able to give a child (especially a daughter) a better upbringing that a healthy mom and dad. Visa vesa for lesbian couples with boys.
7- What about legalising polygamous marriage? My view is that a polygamous marriage would be better in a child?s best interest to a gay marriage. Can anybody come up with some examples why this is not the case? So then why not legalise it too? Some could probably argue that its even better than a heterosexual marriage.



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  Reply # 666030 2-Aug-2012 11:47 Send private message

Skolink:
BlueShift:
menabassily: Ok, I lost track of what's happening here, can we adopt this technique to help clarify things again:

Gay Marriage, if you were to vote. Yay or Nay.

Points you are basing your decision on:
1-
2-
3-


I'm in favour

1 - Laws generally exist to protect people from harm
2- Gays getting married will harm nobody (not even the children)
3- Gays not being allowed to marry harms them


Can you please expand on point 3. What harm is caused?

Is it beacuse people 'look down' on them for having a Civil Union rather than a Marriage? If this is tha case surely gay people do not wish to hide the fact that they are in a gay relationship.

The only other harm I can think of is not being allowed to adopt.



The harm being caused is more emotional than anything. are will be constantly thought of as second class citizens by our government because not allowing us to get married is like saying ourrelationship isn't worthy enough of that title. 





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  Reply # 666032 2-Aug-2012 11:48 Send private message

surfisup1000: Children are relevant to marriage in my opinion. 


The marriage law (which is what the changes are proposed to) disagrees with you. That is why the 'Children' argument has no place in this debate.




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