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  Reply # 667321 4-Aug-2012 00:45 Send private message

mattRSK: There has been some really good discussion on here. I've been doing a lot of reading and I've realized something. My opinion that there should be civil unions for same-sex couples and marriages for man-women couples is actually degrading to the same sex couples. When I think about it at a purely political level it is right that anyone should have the right to be defined as married on that level.

The thing I am confused about is you can make exactly the same argument for couples that are related and polygamy. Why do we have the right to tell them what to do?

Anyway probably the most interesting discussion I've ever had. Bit tough on the brain.


Great post, very honest. I have a lot of respect for people who can put their hand up and say 'maybe I was wrong'. I realise that's not specifically what you're saying but correct me if I'm wrong that it what you implied?

For the record, providing all parties are willing and consenting I personally don't have an issue with the concept of polygamy. It's actually perhaps a less contentious issue considering its more widely accepted in history and in some religions.




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  Reply # 667323 4-Aug-2012 00:49 Send private message

mattRSK: 

The thing I am confused about is you can make exactly the same argument for couples that are related and polygamy. Why do we have the right to tell them what to do?

Anyway probably the most interesting discussion I've ever had. Bit tough on the brain.


From a libertarian point of few, as long as everyone is consenting, what right DO you have to say they can't?

If there's a married couple and one of them ends up in hospital, the other has rights to decide what happens to them and if they die, what happens to their property. Why wouldn't that apply to more than one person?

(In the case of 2 other people and they both disagreeing, you'd have to court to decide who has rightful ownership of what, but that already happens.)


As my own personal opinion, what happens to my stuff after I die doesn't matter, because I no longer exist. But if while i'm alive I decide that person A gets <x> and person B gets <y> then that's a personal contract that I decide so the state should be able to enforce that.


I guess there's two things going on here. Straight couples automatically get all this cool/nice stuff to have when they sign a social contract. (Such as being able to decide to pull life support or hopsital visitation rights.. imagine loving someone and not being able to decide what happens or being able to see them one last time.. that'd be crushing)

Ignoring all the other child related stuff or "oh it's a choice" or "oh it's not REAL love" BS, you imagine, the hospital not recognising you as your partners spouse.. how bad would that be?

Please, just let us be with someone(s) we love. Why is that so hard for you to let us do?




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  Reply # 667325 4-Aug-2012 00:56 Send private message

kyhwana2:
mattRSK: 

The thing I am confused about is you can make exactly the same argument for couples that are related and polygamy. Why do we have the right to tell them what to do?

Anyway probably the most interesting discussion I've ever had. Bit tough on the brain.


From a libertarian point of few, as long as everyone is consenting, what right DO you have to say they can't?

If there's a married couple and one of them ends up in hospital, the other has rights to decide what happens to them and if they die, what happens to their property. Why wouldn't that apply to more than one person?

(In the case of 2 other people and they both disagreeing, you'd have to court to decide who has rightful ownership of what, but that already happens.)


As my own personal opinion, what happens to my stuff after I die doesn't matter, because I no longer exist. But if while i'm alive I decide that person A gets and person B gets then that's a personal contract that I decide so the state should be able to enforce that.


I guess there's two things going on here. Straight couples automatically get all this cool/nice stuff to have when they sign a social contract. (Such as being able to decide to pull life support or hopsital visitation rights.. imagine loving someone and not being able to decide what happens or being able to see them one last time.. that'd be crushing)

Ignoring all the other child related stuff or "oh it's a choice" or "oh it's not REAL love" BS, you imagine, the hospital not recognising you as your partners spouse.. how bad would that be?

Please, just let us be with someone(s) we love. Why is that so hard for you to let us do?





I'm not sure you read my previous post at all? 

I'm saying you are right, I have no right to tell others what they can and cannot do. On the same hand I am entitled to my beliefs as well.

gzt

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  Reply # 667331 4-Aug-2012 01:16 Send private message

crackrdbycracku: In effect you are trying to force your definition of marriage on others.
 
Skolink: Hold on a minute, isn't that what this law change will do?
That's one of my main objections to it!

gzt: I don't understand this objection. How will it change your circumstances? The change will make no difference to anyone at all except gay people.

Skolink: [snip]To me this law change is the gay community saying 'you *will* acknowledge our relationship as legitimate'.[snip] [snip]After all, we all have to live by the laws of the country whether we agree with them or not. In any situation which requires consideration to the married status of someone, everyone will be obliged to treat a same sex marriage as if it were a male-female couple. This would affect anyone dealing with the estate of a deceased relative, or an employer or authority giving certain benefits to a married couple.[snip]

Skolink, I hope you don't mind me quoting and reordering two paragraphs from your last post above. The intention is to present the core of your argument on the acknowledgement of relationship point and it's consequences. I hope that is acceptable to you.

This change to allow same sex marriage relationship acknowledgement seems to me similar to the removal of the illegitimate children concept from NZ legislation back in 1969 - which made all children legitimate under the law. That also had wide-ranging effects on legal obligations and deceased estates. You would agree that the legal concept of illegitimacy, and the effect of illegitimacy on inheritance and social acceptance had been around for a long time.

No doubt after the change there were still a few people who maintained that children born outside marriage were somehow less worthy and also had sin attached, but these days few people would even remember that attitude and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who agreed with it.

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  Reply # 667332 4-Aug-2012 01:28 Send private message

mattRSK:
I'm saying you are right, I have no right to tell others what they can and cannot do. On the same hand I am entitled to my beliefs as well.


Welp, can't argue with that. Therefore you should be indifferent to equal marriage.. win win! Are we done yet?


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  Reply # 667333 4-Aug-2012 01:42 Send private message

gzt:
crackrdbycracku: In effect you are trying to force your definition of marriage on others.
 

Skolink: Hold on a minute, isn't that what this law change will do?
That's one of my main objections to it!


I don't understand this objection. How will it change your circumstances? The change will make no difference to anyone at all except gay people.


It's about changing the * legal definition* of marriage to include same sex couples. It's about changing the LAW, and that DOES make a difference to everyone. The debate is about whether the law should be changed or not, and everyone gay, straight, male, and female and that change does make a difference to everyone, because DUH we have to abide by that law when/if it becomes law.

BTW I DO support the law change. And I DO have a right to debate the issue, support it or object to it just as much as any gay person has. 

Yet a large percentage of the supporters of the law change flat out deny others (heterosexuals) do not have any right to debate the issue, especially if they object to the law change.

The gay community can be, and often is just as bigoted and hetrophobic towards those they so readily accuse of being bigots and homophobic. 

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  Reply # 667334 4-Aug-2012 01:48 Send private message

MaxLV:

BTW I DO support the law change. And I DO have a right to debate the issue, support it or object to it just as much as any gay person has. 

Yet a large percentage of the supporters of the law change flat out deny others (heterosexuals) do not have any right to debate the issue, especially if they object to the law change.

The gay community can be, and often is just as bigoted and hetrophobic towards those they so readily accuse of being bigots and homophobic. 



Oh, they can debate it all they want, it just doesn't affect them at all!

 

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  Reply # 667349 4-Aug-2012 08:09 Send private message

To all those that debate that this change will not affect straight marriage relationships, well you partially right. But you also very wrong. 

This law change will make gay marriage seem normal in NZ.

And in our home, its abnormal behaviour. And my kids are being raised that way too. 

So to live in a country where the law allows for this abnormality, it has an effect on our family. Maybe not my rights. Which goes back to my belief, why is gay marriage a right? Its not a right. Marriage is between man and women. My kids know that, every kids book and every kids movie etc all displays Mom and Dad, husband and wife. Cinderella and the prince. I'm not going to parent otherwise and make out that its OK that when they grow up if they want to marry someone of the same sex its OK. Its not OK. And this is a problem, because when my kids display this anti gay marriage behaviour at schools etc ... who is the bad parent then?

And if my kids want to go for a sleepover at a "Gay Married" couples house. Well sorry cant allow them. Just like I would not allow them to stay by somebody that has other very abnormal beliefs to our own. 

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  Reply # 667357 4-Aug-2012 09:05 Send private message

kyhwana2:
MaxLV:

BTW I DO support the law change. And I DO have a right to debate the issue, support it or object to it just as much as any gay person has. 

Yet a large percentage of the supporters of the law change flat out deny others (heterosexuals) do not have any right to debate the issue, especially if they object to the law change.

The gay community can be, and often is just as bigoted and hetrophobic towards those they so readily accuse of being bigots and homophobic. 



Oh, they can debate it all they want, it just doesn't affect them at all!

 


That is where and why you are wrong. It's where and why the 'for' argument fails. They demand the same human right to marry as heterosexual couples, but try to deny it (the legal change) will affect anyone else and say you have to be 'one of us' for it to make a difference.

It's a change of law that applies to *everyone* not just the gay community.



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  Reply # 667377 4-Aug-2012 10:51 Send private message

BraaiGuy: To all those that debate that this change will not affect straight marriage relationships, well you partially right. But you also very wrong. 

This law change will make gay marriage seem normal in NZ.

And in our home, its abnormal behaviour. And my kids are being raised that way too. 

So to live in a country where the law allows for this abnormality, it has an effect on our family. Maybe not my rights. Which goes back to my belief, why is gay marriage a right? Its not a right. Marriage is between man and women. My kids know that, every kids book and every kids movie etc all displays Mom and Dad, husband and wife. Cinderella and the prince. I'm not going to parent otherwise and make out that its OK that when they grow up if they want to marry someone of the same sex its OK. Its not OK. And this is a problem, because when my kids display this anti gay marriage behaviour at schools etc ... who is the bad parent then?

And if my kids want to go for a sleepover at a "Gay Married" couples house. Well sorry cant allow them. Just like I would not allow them to stay by somebody that has other very abnormal beliefs to our own. 


So, what you're saying is that they shouldn't have the right to marry, and that you should have the right to tell them what their rights are.  I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.  Your rights end where everyone else's begin, and your rights most squarely ended right at the border there.

And I do hate to say it, but I don't consider it good parenting to teach children that being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural".  All that does is continue to spread the hatred and bigotry, and if one of the children does turn out to be that way inclined causes some serious mental damage.  Far better to let the children make up their own mind before telling them what your viewpoint is - same as the way in my family we were deliberately not exposed to religion at all by our mother (who is baptised Catholic) to allow us to pick our own path.

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  Reply # 667401 4-Aug-2012 11:52 Send private message

Kyanar:
BraaiGuy: To all those that debate that this change will not affect straight marriage relationships, well you partially right. But you also very wrong. 

This law change will make gay marriage seem normal in NZ.

And in our home, its abnormal behaviour. And my kids are being raised that way too. 

So to live in a country where the law allows for this abnormality, it has an effect on our family. Maybe not my rights. Which goes back to my belief, why is gay marriage a right? Its not a right. Marriage is between man and women. My kids know that, every kids book and every kids movie etc all displays Mom and Dad, husband and wife. Cinderella and the prince. I'm not going to parent otherwise and make out that its OK that when they grow up if they want to marry someone of the same sex its OK. Its not OK. And this is a problem, because when my kids display this anti gay marriage behaviour at schools etc ... who is the bad parent then?

And if my kids want to go for a sleepover at a "Gay Married" couples house. Well sorry cant allow them. Just like I would not allow them to stay by somebody that has other very abnormal beliefs to our own. 


So, what you're saying is that they shouldn't have the right to marry, and that you should have the right to tell them what their rights are.  I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.  Your rights end where everyone else's begin, and your rights most squarely ended right at the border there.

And I do hate to say it, but I don't consider it good parenting to teach children that being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural".  All that does is continue to spread the hatred and bigotry, and if one of the children does turn out to be that way inclined causes some serious mental damage.  Far better to let the children make up their own mind before telling them what your viewpoint is - same as the way in my family we were deliberately not exposed to religion at all by our mother (who is baptised Catholic) to allow us to pick our own path.


+1 - could not agree more.

We want our child to be an individual - not biased towards any one or any sector of society. We want him to have an open mind and free thinking.

We have a lot of gay friends, most of them in very long term relationship - and they seem to be doing a lot better in their relationships than a lot of the heterosexual couples we know.

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  Reply # 667405 4-Aug-2012 11:53 Send private message

Kyanar: 
So, what you're saying is that they shouldn't have the right to marry, and that you should have the right to tell them what their rights are.  I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.


As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman. So if the law changes, well then the definition of the word (And the way the world sees it), and the way our family see it still stays the same. The law will not force me to change my beliefs and the way I choose to bring my children up. There are many things in this world we don't agree with, things that are wrong and allowed, we don't have to choose to accept everything just because the options are there. NZ is a very liberal nation, just because there are options for my kids to go into any religion they like, should I support them becoming a Muslim? Its against our families principles and the way I'm bringing my children up. 

Kyanar: And I do hate to say it, but I don't consider it good parenting to teach children that being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural".  All that does is continue to spread the hatred and bigotry


Just your view. I accept that mine is different. And what you have described above is a perfect example as why Gay Marriage is wrong and will affect many normal heterosexual couples with families. I agree with your point. In the same way I will be correcting my children if they come home with the view that its OK because so and so is doing it. And yes if they go to school and tell those children that its wrong, good on them. Because thats how I'm raising my kids. 



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  Reply # 667406 4-Aug-2012 11:57 Send private message

This probably derives from your belief that gayness is a choice. I think you need to accept the fact that some people are born gay with strong feelings for the same sex, just like us hetero blokes are born straight. Your expression of preference as to a 'correct' sexual orientation is probably not going to make much difference to the true feelings of your children in this matter.

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  Reply # 667407 4-Aug-2012 11:57 Send private message

I know a gay couple living in a stable relationship, raising a teenage girl from a previous heterosexual marriage.

One of this couple is known to me for many years, being family. I knew about it before his parents. When he "came out" his father was shocked. His father used to make non-PC jokes about gays, and was outraged with the situation.

He came to accept it, after many years, that nothing has changed. His son was still his son, and loved him as much as before. They are both doing well now.

Each person is an individual with different wants and needs. We shouldn't interfere with that.

Give them the rights you have. No one is forcing anyone to renounce their lifestyle, just to let others have their own without fear of reprisals or unnecessary bully.





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  Reply # 667411 4-Aug-2012 12:06 Send private message

gzt: This probably derives from your belief that gayness is a choice. I think you need to accept the fact that some people are born gay with strong feelings for the same sex, just like us hetero blokes are born straight. Your expression of preference as to a 'correct' sexual orientation is probably not going to make much difference to the feelings of your children if they happen to be gay.


Many people in our society are born with strong feelings for young children too, including feelings for young kids of the same sex. Sorry all unacceptable. 

BTW, i don't buy into the "born that way" for most gay and lesbian people. I believe a certain percentage are, but many people experiment too. Lots also has to do with the way people are brought up. Its a mixed bag as far as I'm concerned. 



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