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Topic # 109481 20-Sep-2012 14:31 Send private message

OK this should get the tongues waggling ...

Vinylphiles argue that there is no ways a digital process can preserve the original analog signal by chopping it up into 1’s and 0’s and then reconstructing it.

Digitalphiles argue that CD/Digital does a much more accurate job of reproducing the original music sound.

So what is it then? I'm on the fence with this one and have been extremely impressed with the sound quality coming from my mates Vinyl setup. It sure offers a fuller sound. But then again, a high quality CD/Digital setup does the same thing

Whats your view?



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  Reply # 688860 20-Sep-2012 14:33 Send private message

Digital and raw transistor power with nice sealed speakers all the way for me.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 688873 20-Sep-2012 14:53 Send private message

One argument I heard is that Vinyl "feels" better by virtue of being able to reproduce sounds outside of the normal range of hearing but that you can "feel".

An issue with Vinyl, is that if any stage of the process, anything is done digitally, the benefit is lost. The codes used to be 3 letters, A's or D's somewhere on teh packaging.

1st A\D = Analog\Digital recording
2nd A\D = Analog\Digital production
3rd A\D = Analog\Digital mastering.

So any record that doesn't have AAA on it, is IMHO, a waste of time.

You also need to "look after" Vinyl, and the needles get expensive when you don't. Then you've got greater supceptibility to RF interference, earth hum etc.

Regardless, vinyl is much cooler.

CD's are less work and unless it's on a SERIOUSLY expensive system, they sound the same to me. As I can't afford a SERIOUSLY expensive system, it's a moot point.

Digital - As long as it's encoded well, and the DAC is good, then I can't tell the difference between digital or a CD. I am not an audiophile though, i don't buy $1000 power cables etc.





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  Reply # 688875 20-Sep-2012 14:54 Send private message

it's all a load of bollocks if you ask me.

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  Reply # 688886 20-Sep-2012 15:13 Send private message

As one who grew up with vinyl (and later cassette and then CD/digital), I must admit I go with CD mainly for convenience.  I have a mid-range (Cyrus Audio) setup with Sonus Faber Concertos - which produces a pleasant enough sound for me. As with others, I don't think my aging ears are discriminating enough to attempt to state one might be better than the other! The comments about vinyl above are all true (difficult to maintain etc) but a good vinyl setup also sounds "good"!  I very rarely use mine!

In reality, the major issue is more about recording techniques / methods than about vinyl vs CD/digital IMO.  There is quite a bit on the internet about recording methods but I can recommend the following as a good read (with links to more interesting stuff).  Indicates the problem is not so much the digital format itself, as the quality of the recordings that we are being forced into feeding into our systems.

http://www.dr-lex.be/info-stuff/loudness_wars.html






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  Reply # 688900 20-Sep-2012 15:31 Send private message

Interestingly, some TV shows suffer the same issue. Hawaii Five-O has a fairly obvious clipping sound during many louder parts of the show that is pretty consistant between episodes, very few other shows ever exhibit this.

Any CD produced by Disctronics in Australia during the 80s invariably sounds noticably crappier than the same album imported from America, as they insisted on thinking that they "knew better" and buggered up the mastering prior to pressing. I cherish my original 1984 Germany-pressed CD release of Brothers in Arms.

In cases where albums suffer badly from loudness wars, the Vinyl releases are often significantly less "damaged". The oft-quoted example is Metallica's "Death Magnetic" which was virtually unlistenable due to the unbelievably crappy mastering. General consensus was however that the Vinyl release was nowhere near as bad. Funnily enough, the "best" (least crappy) version of the album, was the version available for the Guitar Hero game.





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  Reply # 688913 20-Sep-2012 16:04 Send private message

Japanese releases are often better mastered. Although sometimes when you grab them and the US release they are bit-perfect copies so its not always the case.




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  Reply # 688915 20-Sep-2012 16:11 Send private message

I'm all digital myself, Flac -> Logitech Squeezebox -> Beresford Caiman DAC -> Sony ES AVR.

Sounds really nice but have to agree with others that the production\mastering of the recording has a lot to do with things. Some albums sound fantastic whilst others can leave you wanting.

Have thought about trying a vinyl set-up as I've read a lot about how much "warmer" sounding it can be but after spending $$$$ on new speakers last year I'm not sure the wife will go for a decent turntable and phono stage as well.




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  Reply # 688928 20-Sep-2012 16:31 Send private message

geekiegeek: 
Have thought about trying a vinyl set-up as I've read a lot about how much "warmer" sounding it can be but after spending $$$$ on new speakers last year I'm not sure the wife will go for a decent turntable and phono stage as well.


Surely, with a saving of $10k, the wife would be happy to let you have one of these??!!
http://www.audioreference.co.nz/product/brinkmann-balance-anniversary-turntable-12-taemt-tironthrs-isolation-base
You don't even have to pay extra for a tonearm and cartridge!

And, to top it off, you can save another $1450 on the phono stage to go with it:
http://www.audioreference.co.nz/product/brinkmann-edison-reference-phono-stage-fully-balance-w-remote-slate-base

I reckon the wife couldn't help but give it the green light. Wink





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  Reply # 688929 20-Sep-2012 16:35 Send private message

i'd take a 1200/1210 anyday over a dust magnet like that ;)




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 688934 20-Sep-2012 16:46 Send private message

richms: i'd take a 1200/1210 anyday over a dust magnet like that ;)


Must admit I still have a 1224 from 1974 (I think) with a basic Shure M95ED on it!!  Shows you where I sit on the turntable spectrum!!





"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into."
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  Reply # 688936 20-Sep-2012 16:49

As someone who grew up with vinyl - then saw CDs come to market, I always wondered why they couldnt just make a more durable record substance that was antistatic. Good vinyl sounds as good - if not better than a CD. It was always the pops and clicks and minor scratches that was the biggest issue.

I think one BIG advantage that vinyl had was a maximum of about 20 minutes per 'side'. I reckon thats about all most people listen to in one hit. I have quite a few CDs that are around the 70m mark that I am sure I have never got to the end of. Though it was probably worse in the late 80s when the CD seemed to have long versions of every song and a whole lot of extra filler/remixes on the end.

Japanese vinyl was always regarded as better because they used a higher quality vinyl and made them a bit heavier I gather.





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  Reply # 688941 20-Sep-2012 16:56 Send private message

An argument not worth having, like anything, very subjective and too many factors.

Poor recording on vinyl (even AAA) won't sound anywhere near as good as good recording digitally, and then of course there is your audio system for the playback.

A lot of what people might like about vinyl is perhaps like 'pure water'. It's not the purity of the element itself, rather, the impurities of water that make it taste nice.

Drink distilled ("pure" water from a scientific point of view), and drink tap water or bottled water ("impure" by nature, and lied about for decades by marketing folk), and you might find the "impure" stuff is best.

I listen to vinyl, especially older albums released when digital wasn't widespread (e.g. Led Zep, The Who, and loads of older stuff), and the feelings evoked by the sound of a slightly dusty record being played on an older Sanyo seperate component 'Hi-Fi' system, takes me straight back to my childhood, in a way that the same song on my SGSIII over Bluetooth A2DP to my Sony 7.1 system never will.

The SGSIII Bluetoothed to my modern home theatre is a 'better quality' sound, but can't hold a candle to the experience of my moms scratched records and crappy audio system.

I've never met a true 'audiophile', though I am sure they exist. I'd wager though, that for every thousand people on the internet describing selves by that term, that maybe 0.1% of them actually are.

Choose a format that suits you, spend your chosen budget wisely, and enjoy the music.

I can't stress that last term enough... let me re-state it...

Enjoy the music.

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  Reply # 688942 20-Sep-2012 16:58 Send private message

a2dp - there's your problem right there. It is aweful. Truely shocking.

adding apt-x support is a massive step towards lossless but you are still reliant on the audio quality of the receiving device and the DSP and encoding on the sending device.




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  Reply # 688950 20-Sep-2012 17:07 Send private message

Interesting thread.

I've got copies of some source material on vinyl and CD, and in most cases the vinyl version wins for "feel". There's nothing wrong with my CD player (currently an OPPO BluRay player but previously a reasonably good NAD CD player), but the vinyl seems more lively and the CD flat. I've tried both analogue and digital feeds from the CD player to the amp, but straight analogue from vinyl still sounds nicer for some recordings.

Now the really interesting bit. I've found that recording analogue vinyl onto a Panasonic DVD recorder at 196kbps, then transferring to a PC and converting to the highest bitrate mp3, gives a result that's still better than the CD for some recordings. I'm playing the mp3s through the OPPO, so they're travelling the same path as CDs played on the OPPO.

That tells me that CDs are mastered for "average" systems, and aren't as good as they could be. That some CDs do sound all right indicates that good CDs are possible, and it's not a hardware problem.

It must be said that while my turntable isn't state of the art it was $1K+ over 20 years ago, and the stylus was (from memory) over $600 around the same time. Both carefully looked after still sound pretty damn good.




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  Reply # 688960 20-Sep-2012 17:15 Send private message

richms: a2dp - there's your problem right there. It is aweful. Truely shocking.

adding apt-x support is a massive step towards lossless but you are still reliant on the audio quality of the receiving device and the DSP and encoding on the sending device.

Not sure if you read my post. I don't have a problem at all.

The perception of 'problems' or 'lack of quality of audio' in any given situation is far too subjective.

Repeat my same post above, rinse, repeat, do it all again.

Enjoy the music.

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