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  Reply # 696187 4-Oct-2012 15:30 Send private message

khull: 

Many technological advances we take for granted today such as the internet was 'given away' for moving the humanity forward.


So true. We recognise China for coming up with paper, I think the idea of a 0 as a place holder came from the middle east. These cultures get a place in the history of humanity. They don't get to claim they are owed money. 




Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

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  Reply # 696199 4-Oct-2012 15:49 Send private message

MikeSkyrme: Yes, it would be nice to get full and final settlement... but it is unlikely.As mentioned by a previous commenter, the people making the money here are the lawyers, and they are not likely to opt for a quick end to the claim process when the other option is years and years of $500 /hr representation.

Not exactly correct. For one thing there are not many lawyers in NZ billing a $500/hour, most are around $200-250. Treaty lawyers a LOT less. Only a relatively few lawyers bill at or above $500.

Second, Treaty of Waitangi lawyers are paid from Legal Aid and their fees are set by the Min of Justice. Therefore the taxpayer is paying them. The fees they can charge are tightly restricted the rules are rigorously enforced.

The people who make the money are the iwi who are paid out multi-million dollar settlements.

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  Reply # 696224 4-Oct-2012 16:27 Send private message

Don't get me wrong, I am all for resolving treaty issues, but due to some of the maori extremist it become redicolous sometimes

Maori interests including Nga Kaiwhakapumau i Te Reo have made a Waitangi Tribunal claim for the digital dividend spectrum, which sits in the 700MHz band. Seriously wtf?

next every pakeha will have to pay an extra tax to maori due to the water content in their body

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  Reply # 696244 4-Oct-2012 16:46 Send private message

qwerty7: Don't get me wrong, I am all for resolving treaty issues, but due to some of the maori extremist it become redicolous sometimes

Maori interests including Nga Kaiwhakapumau i Te Reo have made a Waitangi Tribunal claim for the digital dividend spectrum, which sits in the 700MHz band. Seriously wtf?

next every pakeha will have to pay an extra tax to maori due to the water content in their body


I don't enjoy saying this but you are legitimising the fringe by taking them seriously. We know nobody will be charged for water due to a Maori claim, it just won't happen. 

But rejecting the idea of dialogue due to extremists means a meaningful solution for all of us is further away. 

We, all of us, need to find some kind of middle ground between the extremes. 




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Watchmaker Wizard
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  Reply # 696247 4-Oct-2012 16:50 Send private message

Given that the radio spectrum permeates the entire universe, and has done so since the beginning of time itself, possibly before, where do they draw the line?

Do all of Maori, or even all the members of a given iwi reap the benefits of these claims, or just the ones at the top of the food chain?




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  Reply # 696253 4-Oct-2012 16:54 Send private message

stevenz: where do they draw the line?



'They' don't draw the line 'we' do. 

We accept that the current claim process is valid and we decide when and how is stops or changes. 






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  Reply # 696258 4-Oct-2012 16:58 Send private message

Who is "we"? If "we" was the public, then I suspect many of the prior granted claims would've been thrown out for being an afront against common sense.




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  Reply # 696259 4-Oct-2012 16:59 Send private message

stevenz: Given that the radio spectrum permeates the entire universe, and has done so since the beginning of time itself, possibly before, where do they draw the line?

Do all of Maori, or even all the members of a given iwi reap the benefits of these claims, or just the ones at the top of the food chain?


Given that, All the spectrum etc should be free for all to use, along with water, Electricity...........

Or are you saying that the line should be drawn under non Maori ownership/rights?

The fact is the Treaty exists, the rights exist and these should be honoured. 




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 696273 4-Oct-2012 17:12 Send private message

stevenz: Who is "we"? If "we" was the public, then I suspect many of the prior granted claims would've been thrown out for being an afront against common sense.


'We' as in "we who elect the politicians who sign off on these settlement claims".

It is the same 'we' who accept any politician who proposes an end to claims being branded a 'racist' thereby ending their career.

I say things like 'treaty claims for electromagnetic spectrum is clearly ridiculous' and people, including my partner, say "Sure, you can say things like that because you'er Maori. I can't say things like that". I answer, 'No, I can say things like that because a) it's true and b) in a free country you have free speech'. I still get told that saying things like that is unacceptable. 

We need to stop being silly and say what we know to be true.  

 




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Watchmaker Wizard
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  Reply # 696285 4-Oct-2012 17:23 Send private message

Land is tangible and more-or-less stays put, the radio spectrum is just "there".

People are free to make and use their own electricity (solar, wind etc), they're also free to use all the water they like that they can lay their hands on, options for doing so are pretty limited (rainwater) but it's possible.

If they choose to make use of infrastructure that has been put in place to move these things from A to B then they should expect to pay for it.

Are they going to claim ownership of the part of the spectrum that represents the visible colour range, or just the ones that they can make a buck from? Why has the 4G spectrum been singled out?

Whether or not the rights exist is arguable. Lawyers can adapt pretty much anything to appear to be claimable against the treaty.

Maybe the given iwi should only be able to claim frequency rights in whatever small pockets of the country that their iwi was located in a couple of centuries ago? Or only full-blooded members of the iwi? The treaty is a massive cockup due to dodgy translating to the benefit of the Europeans and it's biting everyone in the arse in a big way. I'd say it serves us right for trying to screw the natives, but paying for the sins of the father should only go so far.




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  Reply # 696313 4-Oct-2012 18:14 Send private message

freitasm:
gzt: The last time this happened with the 3G spectrum we got 2Degrees entirely as a result of that.

The competition has been welcome and has made a significant difference.

The result was actually quite good.


Unintended consequence. The government gave the rights to the Iwi to buy the spectrum at a discounted price. Econet worked a deal with that group.




And there were plenty of conditions attached to that deal that were supposed to improve the welbeing of Maori. Have many of the those conditions been met? That's a whole new discussion!

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  Reply # 696314 4-Oct-2012 18:15 Send private message

It is disgusting greed and that's all it is.

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  Reply # 696339 4-Oct-2012 19:14 Send private message

KiwiNZ:
stevenz: Given that the radio spectrum permeates the entire universe, and has done so since the beginning of time itself, possibly before, where do they draw the line?

Do all of Maori, or even all the members of a given iwi reap the benefits of these claims, or just the ones at the top of the food chain?


Given that, All the spectrum etc should be free for all to use, along with water, Electricity...........


And that's why civilisation evolved close to waterways. But when there is distribution, cleaning in place then there are costs involved. Companies receive rights to charge for the costs of making clean water available at longer distances.


KiwiNZ: Or are you saying that the line should be drawn under non Maori ownership/rights?


I think the conclusion should be "if it's owned by all New Zealanders than the government representing the entire group should administer and manage the resource, granting rights of usage to companies who will create services to benefit the entire coutry."

Companies will obviously charge for the services, simply because to actually use the waves there is need of equipment, services (management, testing, deployment), salaries, etc. Companies will put an investment on and charge for the services. The alternatives are for no development to happen or a small group control the resource, perhaps even blocking development or making it even more expensive.

What I see happening instead is a group claiming ownership rights over something that should belong to all citizens.

The question above is always valid: who benefits of the rights? All members of a given iwi, the entire Maori population of New Zealand, or the entire New Zealand citizenry? 

If it benefits the entire Maori population, are the benefits being distributed as bonus - for example the 2degrees spectrum is obviously generating some revenue. Is there a profit to be distributed? Is just for that iwi or all Maori people?

Inquiring minds want to know.









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  Reply # 696368 4-Oct-2012 19:54 Send private message

freitasm:  Inquiring minds want to know.


I agree.


I thought this issue was put to bed two decades ago with a billion dollar settlement, but clearly those who said at the time that it wasn't, were right.

I can see how people will come to resent this whole Maori thing, I really can.

Having very recently read the English version of the treaty, I can see how they have a claim on G4 space, or any space for that matter.

But I agree with MF here.  Is the spend of the past 3 decades filtering though?  Are the Maori people as a whole better off for it today than 4 decades ago?

D




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Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - [email protected]


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  Reply # 696422 4-Oct-2012 21:00 Send private message

I try to understand this issue and it's effects from both perspective. I do not simply say that maori are always claiming stuff. There is truth to the argument, you cannot deny there are flaws in the treaty and the extremist ruin the validity of it. There is also an aspect of self blame. Despite the fact that one culture is generally less financially wealthy i do not agree with bandaid solutions such as free university for maori.
I watched this a couple of weeks ago? http://tvnz.co.nz/what-really-happened/really-happened-video-4013157

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