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191 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 698888 10-Oct-2012 09:50 Send private message

Changing to plain packaging isn't about getting current smokers to quit - it's about reducing the likelihood that kids will take up smoking in the first place.

By de-normalising smoking and making it cost prohibitive, kids are less likely to start and that's a very good thing to aim for. I don't care if adults decide to take up smoking - knock yourselves out - but kids get pulled and prodded by advertising far beyond what we'd expect. Why do you think Camel cigarettes sells cuddly Camel toys?

I was staggered when my then two year old daughter pointed out the McDonald's golden arches when we were out driving. She'd never had one, never seen anyone eat one as far as I'm aware, yet she knew what they were ("Donners! DONNERS!") and I put that down to advertising, pure and simple.

Think back a decade or two (ok, maybe further - I am old) and smoking and cigarettes were commonplace both in real life and on TV/movies. I'm often astonished by how much people smoke in movies I think of as quite recent (showed the kids Ghostbusters the other day... man, they puff their way through that film). By reducing the visibility of cigarettes we reduce the desirability. Ratchet up the price at the same time and the kids will soon balance up smoking with spending their money on cellphones or apps or something else. My kids already ask for their pocket money in iTunes money so they can buy One Direction (shudder) and that means they're less likely to try something like this out of their own pocket.

When smoking is down to about 5-10% of the population it ceases to be a societal problem and can drop off the radar. That's a huge win in my book.

Ironically, the only place my kids see people smoking for the most part is on anti-smoking ads... someone wants to have a think about that.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 698897 10-Oct-2012 10:04 Send private message

gregmcc: 
Well this happend last night, coming home just on dusk, saw the orange glow of several smokes, upon getting closer I realised it was coming from a group of 8 & 9 year old kids who were playing out on the street, is that a lifestyle choice!! or or simply the cool factor of smoking?


You'll only stop that when there are no more smokes anywhere. Kids see Ma and Pa smoke and drink (and bash each other).... it's a monkey see, monkey do world. Observation is how we learn.

Just gotta teach Ma & Pa not to inhale and we'll all be sweet-as

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  Reply # 698997 10-Oct-2012 11:59 Send private message

BlueShift:
Kyanar: Why would BAT advertise for their competitors?


A rising tide lifts all boats...


This




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  Reply # 698999 10-Oct-2012 11:59 Send private message

PaulBrislen: Ironically, the only place my kids see people smoking for the most part is on anti-smoking ads... someone wants to have a think about that.


+1




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  Reply # 699002 10-Oct-2012 12:02 Send private message

Doctor involve in national health policy once said to me that the real issue is social wellfare costs of people just living longer. Smoking saves money.




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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 699236 10-Oct-2012 17:34 Send private message

DonGould: Doctor involve in national health policy once said to me that the real issue is social wellfare costs of people just living longer. Smoking saves money.


That is a truly disturbing line of thought.

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  Reply # 699240 10-Oct-2012 17:40 Send private message

I have been quite surprised that the ads didn't get associated with Master Card. My first thought when I saw the ad with the two circles was that it was a master card ad, the way they bring them together.

I wouldn't have thought that master card would have wanted the association, but perhaps that's on purpose as well?




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  Reply # 699248 10-Oct-2012 17:44 Send private message

rvangelder:
DonGould: Doctor involve in national health policy once said to me that the real issue is social wellfare costs of people just living longer. Smoking saves money.


That is a truly disturbing line of thought.


Yes, but if you get that percentage of people living 10 years longer but retiring at 65...  Dieing at 90 rather than 80, that's a high cost, and higher than medical costs.

Medical costs also push a lot of high value jobs back into the economy.  So people not needing as much health care but more garbage collection... do the simple math.






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  Reply # 699306 10-Oct-2012 20:17 Send private message

gregmcc:
JimmyH: I don't smoke, nor am I involved in selling tobacco, so I am not too fussed one way or the other.

I do, however, have some reservations about the increasingly intrusive nature of "Nanny State" into lives - as long as sale to kids is banned, people don't smoke inside where I work, and the per-pack tax is set at a level high enough to recover any extra health costs imposed by smokers, quite frankly I don't really care whether an adult chooses to smoke or not. I have no interest in lighting up, nor do I have any particular interest or desire to persecute someone who chooses to do so. Actually, I find it a bit odd that some people get so worked up about the lifestyle choices that other people choose to make...........




Well this happend last night, coming home just on dusk, saw the orange glow of several smokes, upon getting closer I realised it was coming from a group of 8 & 9 year old kids who were playing out on the street, is that a lifestyle choice!! or or simply the cool factor of smoking?


In my book, it's bad parenting or behavior from an adult. Kids that age can't (practically) buy ciggies, so they must have got them (directly or indirectly) from an adult in some way. There are plenty of things that adults are properly allowed to do/have that they have a clear responsibility to ensure are kept out of the hands of young children - ciggies, circular saws, alcohol, firearms, arc welders, motor vehicles, barbeque fuel, etc - that isn't an argument for banning all of them.

Watchmaker Wizard
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  Reply # 699835 11-Oct-2012 17:37 Send private message

I used to smoke, packed it in (and made no fuss about it unlike some who think it's a big deal) largely because I got fed up of standing outside in the cold, being that this is Wellington.

If it's legal, then people should be allowed to make their own choices. If the taxes on the smokes cover the cost of looking after illnesses that are a direct result of smoking, then I don't see a problem. If they were truly concerned about how harmful it is to people, then they should make it illegal like all the other "harmful" substances out there.

As mentioned above, given that smokes aren't allowed to be on display anyway, why does the packaging make any difference? If I were to pull out a pack of smokes, odds are the only people who would be close enough to me to be able to discern the brand would probably be people with a pack in their pocket as well.

"Put them in an all black pack, with a skull & crossbones on the front, and call 'em tumours. Smokers will be lining up around the block". Denis Leary. (Who admittedly had to quit smoking due to a cancer scare, oh the irony).





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 699873 11-Oct-2012 18:42 Send private message

rvangelder: Mostly people's choices are based on having reduced things down to good things and bad things. Smokes, specifically nicotine, hit the brain's reward system and turns what really is a poison into a positive experience - a "good thing".

There's a line that's can be crossed when tampering with the reward system - cross that line and a substance deserves to be regulated to oblivion.


Even if we accept what you say, does this legislation help? I mean is there any evidence to support the premise that plain packaging is going to put more people off smoking than the current packaging which graphically depict the impacts of smoking?

Also, what does plain packaging mean. I imagine no bling, but you can still have text on the outside of the box? If so, presumably the government going to dictate the colours, fonts and font sizes that must be used.. if not there will be differentiation between products and the simplicity of packaging could actually be quite attractive.

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  Reply # 699881 11-Oct-2012 18:54 Send private message

rvangelder: Mostly people's choices are based on having reduced things down to good things and bad things. Smokes, specifically nicotine, hit the brain's reward system and turns what really is a poison into a positive experience - a "good thing".

There's a line that's can be crossed when tampering with the reward system - cross that line and a substance deserves to be regulated to oblivion.


So you want to ban alcohol, coca cola and coffee as well?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 699921 11-Oct-2012 20:58 Send private message

blair003:
Also, what does plain packaging mean. I imagine no bling, but you can still have text on the outside of the box? If so, presumably the government going to dictate the colours, fonts and font sizes that must be used.. if not there will be differentiation between products and the simplicity of packaging could actually be quite attractive.

Was talking to someone in the tobacco industry....they told me that much research had been done on the plain/unexciting packaging and some samples had been produced using muddy colours that wouldn't appeal to children. They took a sample home and showed it to their son who thought the camouflage colours on the pack were 'really cool'.
Fail.

915 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 699990 12-Oct-2012 00:14 Send private message

blair003:
Also, what does plain packaging mean. I imagine no bling, but you can still have text on the outside of the box? If so, presumably the government going to dictate the colours, fonts and font sizes that must be used.. if not there will be differentiation between products and the simplicity of packaging could actually be quite attractive.


The plain packaging means two things to consumers - it will make it easy to sell counterfeit cigarettes (ie. not the brands that have paid taxes to the government) and will make it harder to know if they are buying the product they are paying for. 







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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 700021 12-Oct-2012 08:36

If it was that easy to sell untaxed cigarettes it would already be happening with fake branded packets.

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