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654 posts

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  Reply # 708565 29-Oct-2012 17:16

KiwiNZ:
KevinL: Actually, I'm fairly certain the evidence base suggests they're fairly safe in themselves.  It's the other vehicles sharing the road that are dangerous.

High speed motorcycle crash is generally more survivable than a high-speed car crash.  Probably something to do with momentum and rate of loss of energy (cars don't bounce, they stop).


What evidence do you have to support this, in modern cars there cumple zones, energy transfer in an impact, pyro seat belt pre-tensioners, Airbags, headrests, anti-submarining seats and belts, collapsing staring columns etc etc, on a bike you have a helmet (if worn) leather clothing (if worn), I am not seeing the odds of survival here.


Completely anecdotal (having worked in a tertiary trauma centre for the last 9 years or so) although I'm sure it depends entirely on the situation.  I could probably drag something out of the medical literature though - it's hard to generalise as the statistics don't accurately capture the pre-hospital deaths.

However, in a high-energy impact (e.g. head-on collision at >100kph) even with the modern safety features, going from >100kph to zero kph in a matter of seconds involves a massive transfer of energy.  

Motorcyclists tend to bounce (and don't stop immediately) and hence lose energy at a much slower rate - consequently the injuries seen are different (generally more long bone injuries rather than deceleration injuries e.g. liver/splenic contusions) but often more survivable.

Edit: One random study plucked out of the ether, done in Greece 2005:

": Of 730 consecutive patients, 444 were motorcyclists (60.8%), 209 were car occupants (28.7%), and 77 were pedestrians (10.5%). Young men constituted the majority of injured motorcyclists whereas older patients (p = 0.0001) and women (p = 0.0001) represented a substantial proportion of the injured pedestrians. With regard to the spectrum of injuries in the groups, craniocerebral injuries were significantly more frequent in motorcyclists and pedestrians (p = 0.0001); abdominal (p = 0.009) and spinal cord trauma (p = 0.007) in car occupants; and pelvic injuries (p = 0.0001) in pedestrians. Although the car occupants had the highest Injury Severity Score (ISS) (p = 0.04), the pedestrians had the poorest outcome with substantially higher mortality (p = 0.007) than the other two groups."

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 708569 29-Oct-2012 17:30 Send private message

i dont deny its usually the cars fault but thats beside the point., who do you think comes of worse when a car hits a moped at any speed, so i stick to cars, im pretty sure there cant be many drivers killed by getting hit by a moped.

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  Reply # 708570 29-Oct-2012 17:34

vexxxboy: i dont deny its usually the cars fault but thats beside the point., who do you think comes of worse when a car hits a moped at any speed, so i stick to cars, im pretty sure there cant be many drivers killed by getting hit by a moped.


Sure, but mopeds can't get to motorway speeds so they're inherently safer ;-)

I drive a 1973 Mini.  It's almost certainly more dangerous at motorway speeds than just about anything else on the road - in fact, I think I'd fancy my chances more on a motorcycle...

As mentioned earlier the pre-hospital deaths probably skew things a little bit.  Perhaps it's more accurate to say for those who make it to hospital, the pattern of injury tends to be less severe and more survivable for high-speed motorcycle accidents than high-speed car accidents.  Statistics are interesting - there's a lot of interpretation.

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  Reply # 708573 29-Oct-2012 17:40 Send private message

KevinL:
KiwiNZ:
KevinL: Actually, I'm fairly certain the evidence base suggests they're fairly safe in themselves.  It's the other vehicles sharing the road that are dangerous.

High speed motorcycle crash is generally more survivable than a high-speed car crash.  Probably something to do with momentum and rate of loss of energy (cars don't bounce, they stop).


What evidence do you have to support this, in modern cars there cumple zones, energy transfer in an impact, pyro seat belt pre-tensioners, Airbags, headrests, anti-submarining seats and belts, collapsing staring columns etc etc, on a bike you have a helmet (if worn) leather clothing (if worn), I am not seeing the odds of survival here.


Completely anecdotal (having worked in a tertiary trauma centre for the last 9 years or so) although I'm sure it depends entirely on the situation.  


that is because most of them dead at the scene.

motorcyclist = organ donor





gzt

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  Reply # 708587 29-Oct-2012 17:59 Send private message

crackrdbycracku: On of the recent articles I have read basically said if you got a free car park from work it doesn't make sense to take the bus because the major cost for driving to work is parking. Does anybody else think there is something seriously wrong with this?


Not seriously wrong but given the cost of city car park lease it would be a good idea to offer free train/bus/ferry passes as an option. Where it is a practical travel option it eliminates transport costs for employees and reduces lease costs for employers.

My guess is tickets will attract FBT and employee car parks do not being seen as part of lease.

Even so, the high cost of city carparks could make this option viable all the same.



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  Reply # 708598 29-Oct-2012 18:04 Send private message

gzt: 

My guess is tickets will attract FBT and employee car parks do not being seen as part of lease.

Even so, the high cost of city carparks could make this option viable all the same.


Something else I recently read said car parks are the next front for FBT to 'make things fairer', beats me as to how but I don't work for IRD.  




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  Reply # 708600 29-Oct-2012 18:07 Send private message

I rode a 125cc scooter to work for about five years and it was great. Free parking, $6/week in fuel (may be more now) and I could happily do 80kph on it (and I was a slim 80kg at the time). Good for surface roads but I wouldn't go on the motorway with it for obvious reasons.

As a commuting machine goes it was second to none. My daily commute home was 15 minutes regardless of the traffic (actually full gridlock was better as I felt a lot safer with stationary cars around me) but I did get ridden over twice and yes, each time the driver said "sorry mate, didn't see you there" which was pretty obnoxious if you ask me.

The new job involved going over The Bridge so I bought a car. The only thing I really don't miss about the scooter is the scooting in lousy weather. You only go out once in a hail storm to really appreciate a roof.

I'd do it again because driving a car is so lazy and so unnecessary for my commute but currently I, like Mauricio, have a 30-second trip from kitchen to desk so it's all good.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 708602 29-Oct-2012 18:19 Send private message

I drive or cycle to work, usually free parking at work or free street parking if a lot of people drive. It is harder to get on street parking after the earthquakes as more businesses moved into the area and people park anywhere they can.
We've got our own covered bike rack for our bikes too for those wintry days when you really should have driven.

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  Reply # 708611 29-Oct-2012 18:30 Send private message

Walk + train for me.

I've never driven, but have rode my fair share of motor bikes (200/400/750) in. And for a few years have ridden bicycles in.

Personally think everyone is a bit crap on the roads.

I don't like scooters as they they tend to be ridden by car drivers, and as such, have had very little motorbike training.

I think everyone on scooters and motorbikes should be required to get a motorcycle license.

Of course you could argue the same with bicycles - and there's some merit to that idea.




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  Reply # 708625 29-Oct-2012 19:13 Send private message

KevinL: Actually, I'm fairly certain the evidence base suggests they're fairly safe in themselves.  It's the other vehicles sharing the road that are dangerous.

High speed motorcycle crash is generally more survivable than a high-speed car crash.  Probably something to do with momentum and rate of loss of energy (cars don't bounce, they stop).


Having lost a younger brother to 2 wheels, you can throw any stats at me you like...  I've been in two car crashes and walked away from both (neither my fault, but fault doesn't seem to impact damage).

My comment really was one of perception.

My perception is that 2 wheels are just not as safe as 4.

I agree with the comments many have made about the dangers other drivers pose to 2 wheels.  When a car gets where it shouldn't be then 2 wheels don't afford much protection, I agree.

But a bike also just presents more hassle.  Motor or push.  At the end of the long day I just want to get in, sit down and go.  I don't want to be pulling hats on, gloves, blar blar.  Even a bus lets me get in and just sit down.

I'm lazy.  I suspect most people are too.






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  Reply # 708627 29-Oct-2012 19:23 Send private message

PaulBrislen: I, like Mauricio, have a 30-second trip from kitchen to desk so it's all good.


If I take it slowly, about 6 seconds from kitchen to desk. You guys must go via the cafe?

Rather happy to avoid the lane-splitting motorcycle riders in Auckland who are usually riding much faster than the flow of traffic and wonder why they get clobbered by a truck.




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  Reply # 708657 29-Oct-2012 20:05 Send private message

I Drive and only pay $7 per week in parking.
I take the flatmate and use the T2 lanes, saves 10 mins on my journey.




Hmmmm

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  Reply # 708730 29-Oct-2012 21:20 Send private message

Driving to work in my current job, but have previously ridden bicycle or motorbike.
With regard to rider/driver safety and accidents....
Biggest issue I see in NZ is poor rider, and driver, training. Most people on 2 wheels are more aware and connected to the whole traffic environment than those inside vehicles, although that doesn't stop some of them taking exceedingly stupid risks.

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  Reply # 708747 29-Oct-2012 21:40 Send private message

I live in Wellington and I take the bus, and wouldn't consider a bike or motorcycle because of the safety issues.

Occasionally I walk home on a Friday night during summer if it's fine but it takes about an hour and a half.

I type on computers
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  Reply # 708763 29-Oct-2012 21:56 Send private message

I live 8km out from the Auckland CBD (moving in a week... soon to be 2km) and still drive in to uni & work. For me it's much more convenient not having to deal with busses or trains. I have car parks in Parnell and Newton (one provided by work) and usually just walk the rest.

It's much faster, too. Once you start doing the trip daily you work out the side streets you can take. What used to be a 45min affair is now no more than 15.

It's certainly not cheaper, my new car has a very fun yet gas sucking turbo, but it does me well.









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