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852 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 51


  Reply # 743351 11-Jan-2013 15:21 Send private message

TheUngeek:
Hammerer: When my front tyres start to squeal while cornering that has always been a good indicator that I need a wheel alignment.


Not sure if I should laugh or cringe lol


When my front tyres start to squeel it is a good indication I am close to the limit of their grip, only usually happens on 2 corners on my way home, they are high speed 80 + km/h corners.




I know a little more than nothing but not much...

4624 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 77

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  Reply # 743359 11-Jan-2013 15:32 Send private message

dickytim:
When my front tyres start to squeel it is a good indication I am close to the limit of their grip,


New tyres squeal more than worn ones as they have more flex and less surface area...
When tyres wear they get more grippy as they close resemble slicks.
Right up until it rains that is.

1746 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 267

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Telecom NZ

  Reply # 743396 11-Jan-2013 16:18 Send private message

Quite apart from the ridiculous arguments here, I'd always prefer to have more grip on the steering wheels, especially since they also do the lions share of the braking.

If I was going to pick an end of the car to lose traction, I'd prefer it was the rear I'm afraid. I fully understand that a COMPLETE loss of control with oversteer will likely be less predictable than a big understeer event, but unless it's a big lose and my inputs won't do anything anyway, I'd like as much control as possible of the steering and braking.

Source - I've over and understeered everything from a 1000cc mini and a Daihatsu Sirion to a Formula 1 car. I've never hit anything though - but I have gone round and round a few times.

Quite apart from the amount of tread on the tire as well - there's a huge contribution by making sure that the tires are correctly inflated and aren't rock hard. Tire rubber "goes off" and old tyres can lose a lot of their grip, even with good tread depth. Remember, grip comes from the rubber touching the road, NOT from the tread. (except in odd cases)

http://www.bridgestone.com.au/tyres/passenger/care/age.aspx


Cheers - N

ps. No, actually I never managed to provoke oversteer in the Daihatsu :-)

4624 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 77

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  Reply # 743416 11-Jan-2013 16:54 Send private message

Talkiet:  I'd always prefer to have more grip on the steering wheels, especially since they also do the lions share of the braking.

If I was going to pick an end of the car to lose traction, I'd prefer it was the rear I'm afraid.


+1

I remember reading your track day write up mate, very cool Wink.

27 posts

Geek


  Reply # 743610 11-Jan-2013 22:02 Send private message

OP- Yes I do.

852 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 51


  Reply # 743622 11-Jan-2013 22:54 Send private message

Talkiet: Quite apart from the ridiculous arguments here, I'd always prefer to have more grip on the steering wheels, especially since they also do the lions share of the braking.

If I was going to pick an end of the car to lose traction, I'd prefer it was the rear I'm afraid. I fully understand that a COMPLETE loss of control with oversteer will likely be less predictable than a big understeer event, but unless it's a big lose and my inputs won't do anything anyway, I'd like as much control as possible of the steering and braking.

Source - I've over and understeered everything from a 1000cc mini and a Daihatsu Sirion to a Formula 1 car. I've never hit anything though - but I have gone round and round a few times.

Quite apart from the amount of tread on the tire as well - there's a huge contribution by making sure that the tires are correctly inflated and aren't rock hard. Tire rubber "goes off" and old tyres can lose a lot of their grip, even with good tread depth. Remember, grip comes from the rubber touching the road, NOT from the tread. (except in odd cases)

http://www.bridgestone.com.au/tyres/passenger/care/age.aspx


Cheers - N

ps. No, actually I never managed to provoke oversteer in the Daihatsu :-)


Have you tried inducing understeer around a ralitively sharp corner then coming off the gas, that used to work in my proton




I know a little more than nothing but not much...

925 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 35
Inactive user


  Reply # 743632 11-Jan-2013 23:41 Send private message

Talkiet: 
ps. No, actually I never managed to provoke oversteer in the Daihatsu :-)


I did in mine :p It wasn't a Sirion though 

334 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 55


  Reply # 744740 14-Jan-2013 19:33 Send private message

In the UK, a law dating from the time when crossply tyres were widely available made it illegal to drive a car on public roads if it had crossply tyres on the rear and radials on the front. The reason was because of the lower levels of grip afforded by the crossply tyres.

A big problem with modern front wheel drive cars is that the rear tyres hardly wear at all. They do not drive the car and they do not do much work under braking and most drivers do not corner hard enough to wear tyres significantly.

If you do not rotate the tyres then there is a big danger that the rear tyres will become dangerous through age.

If your car is front wheel drive then, since the fronts will always wear more quickly, the easiest solution is to drive until the fronts are worn out and then move the rears to the front and put the new tyres on the rear. That is as much rotation as you need to do and it will keep your car in compliance with documented industry best practice and ensure that you do not end up driving on very old rear tyres.

There is one big difference between US and NZ conditions that can make tyre fitters here more likely to put new tyres on the front than on the back. As documented at an earlier point in this thread, in the US, a tyre supplier can be deemed liable to the extent of millions of dollars if they put new tyres on the front and an accident ensues in which such fitment may have been a contributory factor. Here, the ACC picks up the tab and the tyre fitter has nothing to worry about.

334 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 55


  Reply # 744765 14-Jan-2013 20:45 Send private message

Hammerer:
<snip>
If a pair have worn differently, I often keep the better casing to later use it to replace a tire that has worn out faster than the other in a pair. In general, the right front tire tends to wear faster as it is usual for left hand turns to be sharper than right hand turns.
<snip>


I think that this is a psychological issue. In a country in which driving on the left is the rule, most drivers will actually generate higher cornering forces on left hand bends than on right hand ones because they perceive the threat to be higher on a right hand bend. This is because in a right hand bend, they are turning away from the left edge of the road and that is very close to the left side of the car. On a left hand bend, you are turning away from the right side of the road and that is a lot further away and so the corner seems less intimidating and so the driver gets the same comfort level are at a higher road speed.


310 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 58


  Reply # 744834 15-Jan-2013 00:24 Send private message

jpoc:
Hammerer:
<snip>
If a pair have worn differently, I often keep the better casing to later use it to replace a tire that has worn out faster than the other in a pair. In general, the right front tire tends to wear faster as it is usual for left hand turns to be sharper than right hand turns.
<snip>


I think that this is a psychological issue. In a country in which driving on the left is the rule, most drivers will actually generate higher cornering forces on left hand bends than on right hand ones because they perceive the threat to be higher on a right hand bend. This is because in a right hand bend, they are turning away from the left edge of the road and that is very close to the left side of the car. On a left hand bend, you are turning away from the right side of the road and that is a lot further away and so the corner seems less intimidating and so the driver gets the same comfort level are at a higher road speed.



probably correct about the perception, especially around towns , naturally depends on the types of roads you travel on and for how many k's, most people have more familiarity with the location of the drivers side front wheel compared to the passengers side, meaning they tend to drive closer to the centreline, The closer you drive to the LHS of your lane, the left hand tyre usually supports a bit more weight and being downhill of the centreline therefore the tire has to keep pushing the car uphill to the middle (slightly) for the same reason it's usually left hand side shock absorbers deteriorate more quickly than the RHS too.  Over time though it would make a difference. How often you carry a passenger might have an effect too

619 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 744845 15-Jan-2013 07:57 Send private message

TheUngeek: Fact, that's an American freeway. Relavance to nz conditionss = 0
We do not drive on wide flat concrete roads

Odd - the video seemed to show an asphalt based track being used to demonstrate the issue, not a "wide flat concrete road". I also drive in the US a fair bit (every month) and the majority of roads I drive on are asphalt. In California the average road surface quality is worse than in NZ.

To answer the OP, I rotate my tyres on all my vehicles within the bounds of practicality (staggered wheels with directional tyres make this very difficult without removing the tyres from the wheels which is of less utility). My two preferred tyre manufacturers aren't American companies and they both recommend the newest tyres go on the rear, especially on FWD vehicles, although I tend to just replace all four at once.

925 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 35
Inactive user


  Reply # 744846 15-Jan-2013 08:01 Send private message

Race tracks are built different from roads ;)
Just look at the amount of water that sat on it

310 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 58


  Reply # 745032 15-Jan-2013 12:52 Send private message

The other thing you might want to consider re aquaplaning and wet weather is that the front tyre displaces much of the water, the rear tyre therefore, which of course follows behind it, has less water to clear anyway.


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