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51 posts

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Topic # 113864 30-Jan-2013 14:07 Send private message

I changed my car last year from a 3.5L V6 saloon that gave me approx. 10.5L per 100K, to a 2.2L Peugeot turbo diesel wagon that gives me approx. 7.5L per 100K.  This is a saving of about 30% volume in fuel.  I estimate that with the incresed m.p.g set against the diesel fuel distance license, I'm saving the equivalent of approx. 70c per litre of petrol.  A full tank used to cost me  $120 + whereas it now costs just $70 +, although it is a slightly smaller tank.

Given that about half of fuel cost is tax and I do about 30K per year, the government will be taking about $1,400 per year less from me (sshhh!).  I'm not alone by any means.  Heaps of people are doing the same - moving to diesel, downsizing engines and cars.  Add that to the fact that modern cars of any type are much more fuel efficient than those of even a few years ago and you have a trend that's going to reduce revenue dramatically.  How long will we get away with it?

Governments don't reduce taxes voluntarily and I'm quite sure that this situation will provoke a response.  Government and green lobby exhortations to minimise fuel and power consumption in order to reduce greenhouse gases look likely to produce a double-whammy of punitive tax hikes for us mugs who'd like to comply.  Greenhouse emmision taxes on gas and electricity of course with petrol taxes to follow.  The problem is that the more energy we save, the harder the government is likely tax us.  No carrot and stick here.  Just a big club to beat us with.  I suggest that just as we're doing our best to cut costs, fuel consumption, greenhouse gases and whatever, the government should be encouraged to cut it's costs in proportion to the drop in revenue that result from our changing behaviours.

Or am I being selfish?

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  Reply # 753275 30-Jan-2013 14:15 Send private message

Not selfish, just naive. Your little car doesn't cause 30% less damage to the roads than your old car, and the roads don't magically fix themselves. If fuel tax takes noticeably decline then the taxes WILL go up to compensate.

They go up every year or so anyway.

Personally I believe the time will come in maybe 10 years or so when fuel tax will be largely abolished in favour of a road user charges model for all vehicles, because electric cars -- which currently pay NO fuel tax -- will become a significant portion of the fleet. At that point it should become fairer to all.

Edit -- maybe electric cars already pay road user charges? I don't know. It will be a decade before I can afford one...




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  Reply # 753280 30-Jan-2013 14:20 Send private message

SaltyNZ: Not selfish, just naive. Your little car doesn't cause 30% less damage to the roads than your old car, and the roads don't magically fix themselves. If fuel tax takes noticeably decline then the taxes WILL go up to compensate.

They go up every year or so anyway.

Personally I believe the time will come in maybe 10 years or so when fuel tax will be largely abolished in favour of a road user charges model for all vehicles, because electric cars -- which currently pay NO fuel tax -- will become a significant portion of the fleet. At that point it should become fairer to all.

Edit -- maybe electric cars already pay road user charges? I don't know. It will be a decade before I can afford one...


It would certainly be naive to believe that taxes won't go up but is it really naive to think that government should reign in it's costs and avoid increasing the tax burden.  Wishful thinking maybe.

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  Reply # 753286 30-Jan-2013 14:36 Send private message

Geekamouse: 

It would certainly be naive to believe that taxes won't go up but is it really naive to think that government should reign in it's costs and avoid increasing the tax burden.  Wishful thinking maybe.


Well, in the case of roads, short of closing roads I doubt there are fundamental savings to be found. Sure, there is probably wastage and corruption, but that's nothing to do with fuel-efficient cars. They should be looking at those things anyway.




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  Reply # 753292 30-Jan-2013 14:46 Send private message

Wait till the exchange rate drops. Then you will know what pain is.

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  Reply # 753334 30-Jan-2013 15:50 Send private message

I would say that it will move to road user charges eventually with maybe a factor added on for type of vehicle plus tolls for certain roads.

I also think a direct charge(s) is more likely to better conserve resources than an indirect tax like on petrol.

Still can't see why this isn't applied to water all around NZ. I remember when I lived overseas and was directly charge for water use I was a lot more concerned about how I used it. The funny thing I always feel is that the greens should do this but won't because direct charges goes against their socialist tendancies even though probably better for the environment.

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  Reply # 753335 30-Jan-2013 15:55 Send private message

networkn: Wait till the exchange rate drops. Then you will know what pain is.


This is not going to happen.The exchange rate will keep rising. 

It has been rising since 2002 (general trend with bumps along the way). 

Given the amount of money printing and regular fiscal cliffs by other nations I would expect the dollar to match or beat the USD sometime in future. 

Look at the pound -- it has nearly halved in value and devalued again in the last week. 

The only way is up!!

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  Reply # 753349 30-Jan-2013 16:06 Send private message

surfisup1000:
networkn: Wait till the exchange rate drops. Then you will know what pain is.


This is not going to happen.The exchange rate will keep rising. 

It has been rising since 2002 (general trend with bumps along the way). 

Given the amount of money printing and regular fiscal cliffs by other nations I would expect the dollar to match or beat the USD sometime in future. 

Look at the pound -- it has nearly halved in value and devalued again in the last week. 

The only way is up!!


What goes up, must come down. It's not natural for the dollar to be so high and eventually someone will intervene. Even if it dropped to 70c, the impact would be MASSIVE to petrol prices. 


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  Reply # 753356 30-Jan-2013 16:26 Send private message

To the govt's credit, they are looking at making vehicle registration a part of the fuel tax; rather than the current situation of having a separate collection system for this revenue.

Yeah, taxes keep going up to build better roads, perhaps this is because many/most of the cheap(er) realignments have already been built?

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  Reply # 753364 30-Jan-2013 16:46 Send private message

i'm not so sure about big rise - the petrol companies are making billions from us due to the recent big price rise.

if they rise any more people won't buy cars and hence they will make less money. the car industry probably has a lobby say in the price rise too.

the petrol companies will do anything to keep us using petrol and big rises is not going to help them. all this thing about fuel running out is not quite true for the short - medium - medium-long term ...




Apologies for poor typing standards when on Samsung S4 [swype's fault]/iPad 2 Wifi[too slow to use!]

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  Reply # 753367 30-Jan-2013 16:49 Send private message

joker97: i'm not so sure about big rise - the petrol companies are making billions from us due to the recent big price rise.

if they rise any more people won't buy cars and hence they will make less money. the car industry probably has a lobby say in the price rise too.
...


People won't buy cars? Err if the existing price hikes didn't do it, nothing will. 

NZ's Public transport system would have to improve by a factor of 10 before people will realistically consider it over a car for freedom. I took one of my staffs car park from him so now he has to pay for parking himself, even though there is a bus (1) stop right at our office door almost and outside his house. 

His argument would be he wants to go places after work and the buses are expensive and a pain in the butt. 


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  Reply # 753434 30-Jan-2013 19:17 Send private message

"I changed my car last year from a 3.5L V6 saloon that gave me approx. 10.5L per 100K, to a 2.2L Peugeot turbo diesel wagon that gives me approx. 7.5L per 100K. This is a saving of about 30% volume in fuel. I estimate that with the incresed m.p.g set against the diesel fuel distance license, I'm saving the equivalent of approx. 70c per litre of petrol. A full tank used to cost me $120 + whereas it now costs just $70 +, although it is a slightly smaller tank."

I hope you have factored in the cost of repairing this car compared to the last one. If it's anything like the Peugeot s we've had at work it will keep you poor..




Regards,

Old3eyes

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  Reply # 753492 30-Jan-2013 21:29 Send private message

networkn:People won't buy cars? Err if the existing price hikes didn't do it, nothing will. 

NZ's Public transport system would have to improve by a factor of 10 before people will realistically consider it over a car for freedom. I took one of my staffs car park from him so now he has to pay for parking himself, even though there is a bus (1) stop right at our office door almost and outside his house. 

His argument would be he wants to go places after work and the buses are expensive and a pain in the butt. 


People aren't going to stop buying cars, but at some point people who use their cars to drive down to the corner dairy because they're too lazy to walk are going to have to face the reality that they can't keep using their cars wastefully.

I'm a big fan of cars for long distance travel, but for getting around town I'd rather walk or take the bus. Not using my car for cold running stop/start driving saves a lot of money long term.

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  Reply # 753508 30-Jan-2013 22:02 Send private message

surfisup1000:
networkn: Wait till the exchange rate drops. Then you will know what pain is.


This is not going to happen.The exchange rate will keep rising. 

It has been rising since 2002 (general trend with bumps along the way). 

Given the amount of money printing and regular fiscal cliffs by other nations I would expect the dollar to match or beat the USD sometime in future. 

Look at the pound -- it has nearly halved in value and devalued again in the last week. 

The only way is up!!


Not wanting to rain on parades, but there isn't really such a thing as "the" exchange rate any more (there are many), and while the dollar is strong it isn't nearly as muscular as bleating manufacturers (who are trying to talk their own books) and the media (who seem mostly incapable of looking beyond the $US/$NZ rate) would have you believe.

The $US and the pound date are incredibly weak because the US and British economies are essentially in the lavatory. So it's true that the $NZ has strengthened against these over the last 18-24 months. However, over the same period it has been essentially stable against the Euro (a major economy/currency), stable against the Chinese Yuan (another major economy/currency), weakened against the Aussie dollar (our biggest export market), and (apart from the last 6 weeks) pretty stable against the yen.

Also, you can't look at exchange rates without looking at inflation rates. It's the real exchange rate that matters. In terms of competitiveness (and rounding slightly) if our inflation rate is low (say 1%) and another countries is higher (say 4%), then if the $NZ appreciates by 3% against them then our exporters aren't losing (or gaining) competitiveness. Currently UK inflation is running at just under 3%, and will almost certainly rise at the rate they are printing money and seeing the pound fall - this matters over the medium term, and will likely eventually erase any benefit their exporters get from a collapsing currency.

Finally, if anyone truly believes that a stronger $NZ is a dead cert and a one way bet, then they should get themselves a broker and chase the certain profits from betting against it in currency markets. That's the acid test of conviction - are they prepared to bet the house! Laughing


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  Reply # 753539 30-Jan-2013 22:22 Send private message

I bought a golf turbo diesel a year ago and get an average of 6.0l/100km, however I've found with the RUC and shorter servicing intervals that it means its almost exactly equivalent to the same sized petrol engine model in yearly running cost. The extra torque from the diesel also makes short work of the front tyres...

I'm still undecided on whether I'd get another diesel again.

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  Reply # 753545 30-Jan-2013 22:49 Send private message

JimmyH: 


The $US and the pound date are incredibly weak because the US and British economies are essentially in the lavatory. So it's true that the $NZ has strengthened against these over the last 18-24 months. However, over the same period it has been essentially stable against the Euro (a major economy/currency), stable against the Chinese Yuan (another major economy/currency), weakened against the Aussie dollar (our biggest export market), and (apart from the last 6 weeks) pretty stable against the yen.




Dunno about essentially stable against the euro. The 2 year graph shows a pretty clear upward trend.

The worst affected nations were arguably in the eurozone (portugal, ireland, greece, spain..), and as recently as last year there was a real possibility of the euro not surviving (Germany had to bail it out, from memory France has had their credit rating downgraded..etc).

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