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BDFL
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  Reply # 391210 13-Oct-2010 10:07 Send private message

To refresh everyone's memory: http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/giving-way.html





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  Reply # 391220 13-Oct-2010 10:19 Send private message

freitasm: No, this is not the rule. The rule is clear: a left turning car must giveaway to a right turning car.

The left turn car stops and waits. Traffic behind it stops. Everyone is safe.

If the rule was the other way then how could people be safe? If some are driving around with a distorted understanding rule, then they should not have a driver licence.



Unless of course the traffic behind the vehicle turning left can still go ahead without breaking the central line which means the vehicle turning right would have to wait and give way.

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  Reply # 391223 13-Oct-2010 10:22 Send private message




Unless of course the traffic behind the vehicle
turning left can still go ahead without breaking the central line which
means the vehicle turning right would have to wait and give way.


Precisely the point that no-one seems to get, it's this point and this point alone that makes the current rule so dangerous


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  Reply # 391226 13-Oct-2010 10:26 Send private message

freitasm: No, this is not the rule. The rule is clear: a left turning car must giveaway to a right turning car.

The left turn car stops and waits. Traffic behind it stops. Everyone is safe.

If the rule was the other way then how could people be safe? If some are driving around with a distorted understanding rule, then they should not have a driver licence.

I agree, which is why I'm trying to sort out whether people's understanding of the rule is wrong or if it's my understanding of the rule or if it's my understanding of their understanding! Laughing

The problem is that the link you sent is not 100% unambiguous.  It says if you are turning left you have to give way to right turning traffic (obviously).  But also, right turning traffic must give way to traffic going straight (again obviously).  But what if there is both left and straight traffice?  The road code says "be aware of the traffic behind you. If you were in the blue car (left turning), vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the truck (right turning) can turn or not."  This implies that straight through traffic is allowed to pass the left turning car and that this affects the right turning car's right of way.

I don't think (or I should hope not) that anyone disagrees with the above analysis.  The only question is when is the straight through traffic allowed to pass the left turning car and when do they affect the right turning car's right of way.  My assertion is that they are only allowed to pass "if it is safe to do so", i.e. there are two lanes, they don't cross the centre line of a one laned road etc and that it is only when they are passing the left turning car that they affect the right turning car's right of way.  If the straight through car can not safely pass the left turning car then they don't/shouldn't pass at all and in this case have no relevance to the right turning car's right of way, i.e. the right car goes, then the left, then the straight.

Is this correct or not?

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  Reply # 391227 13-Oct-2010 10:30 Send private message

Even your interpretation is correct the current law is stupid because we drive on the left hand side of the road so a car turning left doesn't have to cross a stream of traffic whereas a car turning right ALWAYS has to and therefore causes more of a problem.

I think that the law was originally introduced so we give way to the right across the board rather than just at roundabouts but it's logic is flawed

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  Reply # 391229 13-Oct-2010 10:31 Send private message

bazzer:
freitasm: No, this is not the rule. The rule is clear: a left turning car must giveaway to a right turning car.

The left turn car stops and waits. Traffic behind it stops. Everyone is safe.

If the rule was the other way then how could people be safe? If some are driving around with a distorted understanding rule, then they should not have a driver licence.

I agree, which is why I'm trying to sort out whether people's understanding of the rule is wrong or if it's my understanding of the rule or if it's my understanding of their understanding! Laughing

The problem is that the link you sent is not 100% unambiguous.  It says if you are turning left you have to give way to right turning traffic (obviously).  But also, right turning traffic must give way to traffic going straight (again obviously).  But what if there is both left and straight traffice?  The road code says "be aware of the traffic behind you. If you were in the blue car (left turning), vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the truck (right turning) can turn or not."  This implies that straight through traffic is allowed to pass the left turning car and that this affects the right turning car's right of way.


Of course turning right is only possible if safe. If a going through decides to dash and overtake a car waiting to giveway, what can you do? Ram it? Nope. You will wait for the driver, because he is the one being a menace.

That's why when I am turning left I giveway while on my side of the road, so other cars have to way instead of having that little space to try and squeeze through.





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  Reply # 391244 13-Oct-2010 10:54 Send private message

freitasm: Of course turning right is only possible if safe. If a going through decides to dash and overtake a car waiting to giveway, what can you do? Ram it? Nope. You will wait for the driver, because he is the one being a menace.

That's why when I am turning left I giveway while on my side of the road, so other cars have to way instead of having that little space to try and squeeze through.



It doesn't need to be a dash and a squeeze to get through, roads can and are wide enough for a vehicle to pass while you are preparing to turn with them still not crossing the central line, this is neither a dangerous or illegal move. If you are artificially keeping wide and slowing down early to stop vehicles passing you that is very bad practice and giving very mixed messages to all the other road users which will slow traffic progress even more as the vehicle wanting to turn right probably wouldn't trust your left signal to be true and wouldn't cross just in case.



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Master Geek


  Reply # 391396 13-Oct-2010 16:31 Send private message

Practice and theory are different, but if you want to ignore reality and deal only with theory, then the car that is turning right can only do so legally if other vehicles can pass on the left.
For example, the rule is to pull over and wait for traffic to clear behind you if there is not clear and sufficient space for a vehicle to pass you on the left, when you wish to turn right. You don't have the right to block traffic just because you want to turn there.
This is one rule many ignore.
But in theory this must mean any car behind a left turning car can get past, and the right turning car won't go if (s)he is not sure if they are turning or not.

There are many other things drivers seem to be unaware of like indicating right at a roundabout, when in fact not and drive straight ahead - that is so annoying when you stop to let them go for no reason! This would be a more deserving area to educate people on the correct current road rules, than to create more new ones.

There are a number of different drivers out there:
A) The fearful driver - you know who waits 7 seconds to go at a green light, never indicates, and its top speed is 40kph.
B) The paranoid driver - can't handle anyone too close behind, will wait for the car in the distance to go by before turning, speeds up approaching passing lanes only to slow down again to trap as many as possible trying to get past him.
C) The arrogant driver - don't cut him off as he suffers from road rage, has a very short life expectancy.
D) The normal driver - who is considerate and courteous but can regress to one or more of the above if stressed :)

I've driven for over 40 years and have had no problems with the current give way rule. I didn't have a problem with the previous one either, but in real life theory and practice are worlds apart.
The problem I posed was IMHO never addressed, that was how will years (33) of doing it one way will be overcome when the rules change?

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  Reply # 391416 13-Oct-2010 17:09 Send private message

Evolbob: Practice and theory are different, but if you want to ignore reality and deal only with theory, then the car that is turning right can only do so legally if other vehicles can pass on the left.
For example, the rule is to pull over and wait for traffic to clear behind you if there is not clear and sufficient space for a vehicle to pass you on the left, when you wish to turn right. You don't have the right to block traffic just because you want to turn there.
This is one rule many ignore.

Where in the road code does it say that?  It says: "If there are other vehicles moving fast or following too closely, or if the road is narrow, it may be best to wait on the left-hand side of the road to make the turn, rather than stopping in the middle of the road and holding up traffic."  It doesn't say thisis mandatory.

Evolbob: But in theory this must mean any car behind a left turning car can get past, and the right turning car won't go if (s)he is not sure if they are turning or not.

Why do you think that one follows from the other?  As I said, there is nothing in the road code that states a turning car must not block the cars behind them (in fact sometimes it is unavoidable), and even if that were so for right turning cars why does it also automatically apply to left turning cars?

Evolbob: There are many other things drivers seem to be unaware of like indicating right at a roundabout, when in fact not and drive straight ahead - that is so annoying when you stop to let them go for no reason! This would be a more deserving area to educate people on the correct current road rules, than to create more new ones.

There are a number of different drivers out there:
A) The fearful driver - you know who waits 7 seconds to go at a green light, never indicates, and its top speed is 40kph.
B) The paranoid driver - can't handle anyone too close behind, will wait for the car in the distance to go by before turning, speeds up approaching passing lanes only to slow down again to trap as many as possible trying to get past him.
C) The arrogant driver - don't cut him off as he suffers from road rage, has a very short life expectancy.
D) The normal driver - who is considerate and courteous but can regress to one or more of the above if stressed :)

I've driven for over 40 years and have had no problems with the current give way rule. I didn't have a problem with the previous one either, but in real life theory and practice are worlds apart.
The problem I posed was IMHO never addressed, that was how will years (33) of doing it one way will be overcome when the rules change?

I'd like to add another one:
E) The complacent driver - he's been driving for 40+ years and hasn't noticed the deterioration of his driving skills.  Applies rules as he remembers them, he is always right because he's been driving for so long.  What would these whippersnappers know?

It's probably these drivers that will have the most trouble with the idea of change.  In response to your initial problem, I would say any driver that has been driving for 33+ years and can't adjust to the new rules when they are likely to be widely publicised should be euthanized for their own benefit.

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  Reply # 391423 13-Oct-2010 17:18 Send private message

freitasm: No, this is not the rule. The rule is clear: a left turning car must giveaway to a right turning car.




Ahh, but the rule is NOT clear, nor is your statement the full rule. The rule, as written in legislation, is that a left turning car must give way to cars that are lawfully turning right. And right turning cars, if driving lawfully, must give way to oncoming traffic that is going straight. Therefore, a left turning car holding up straight through traffic is forcing the right turning driver to make the turn unlawfully! (I absolutely hate being in that position)

And as pointed out by someone else, the road code is not clear either, with its note about "vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the [right turning vehicle] can turn or not."

Another reference along these lines is from the document that kicked this change off:
"The current give way rules place complex demands on road users. Currently, a driver turning left has to... check if there is any traffic coming from behind which will delay the right-turning vehicle".

This is unfortunately still ambiguous, but in my eyes it simply has to mean check for any straight through traffic coming behind you, as the right turning car must give way to that traffic before it makes the turn; straight through traffic has first priority.




nOOb alert

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Master Geek

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  Reply # 391424 13-Oct-2010 17:21 Send private message

Evolbob: The problem I posed was IMHO never addressed, that was how will years (33) of doing it one way will be overcome when the rules change?


Apparently it will not be a problem:

"When a similar change was made in Victoria, Australia in 1993 the crash rate actually dropped in the period immediately after the change and remained lower. A key reason for this was the widespread publicity about the change. It is also possible that people drove more carefully and were more watchful of others as they adjusted to the change." (link)




nOOb alert

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 391432 13-Oct-2010 17:38 Send private message

Evolbob: The problem I posed was IMHO never addressed, that was how will years (33) of doing it one way will be overcome when the rules change?


It is a drivers legal obligation to keep up with the laws as they change and abide by them. Everyone should be up to date with the road code as it stands today, not the day they passed their test or some other date.

I actually think that drivers should have to take an update test to keep their licence valid which would force then to keep up to date with rules and stop them keeping bad habits, your message proves that would be a good idea if you believe people who have been driving a while will have difficulty keeping to new rules as they change.

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  Reply # 391439 13-Oct-2010 17:49 Send private message

Teeps:I actually think that drivers should have to take an update test to keep their licence valid which would force then to keep up to date with rules and stop them keeping bad habits, your message proves that would be a good idea if you believe people who have been driving a while will have difficulty keeping to new rules as they change.


I agree - one needs to re-sit quite a few "papers" to keep up to date in most industries and workplaces these days, even if it's just first aid !!!

Driver licensing should be no different - at least every 10 years, more often if you are convicted of driving offences, or exceed your demerit point limits.

I have often thought that even TV and radio advertising / infomercials would be a good idea - a brief 30 seconds of a relevant rule, in multilingual. Even stuff like  switching on your lights during rain, and showing the differences as seen by other drivers when lights are on or off, and noting that grey / silver cars are extremely difficult to see on a wet evening; or that 90km is the max speed if you are towing a trailer / boat. Basic stuff that people tend to forget. How to use a STOP sign.







My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government

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Master Geek

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  Reply # 391490 13-Oct-2010 19:32 Send private message

SepticSceptic:

I have often thought that even TV and radio advertising / infomercials would be a good idea - a brief 30 seconds of a relevant rule, in multilingual. Even stuff like switching on your lights during rain, and showing the differences as seen by other drivers when lights are on or off, and noting that grey / silver cars are extremely difficult to see on a wet evening; or that 90km is the max speed if you are towing a trailer / boat. Basic stuff that people tend to forget. How to use a STOP sign.



Great idea, sure, but the government won't spend money reminding people of a rule which is not always observed correctly but only creates a minor annoyance to other drivers or generally causes minor crashes. Road user rule changes are publicised at the time, unfortunately to a limited extent. The media usually shows a little interest, but not much, so many will pass most drivers by (something I don't understand, as it's always something I've picked up on and been sure to find out more on, clearly that's just me though).

However, as others have said, the onus is really on drivers to stay up to date. All the material is accessible, more and more so. Both the road code and legislation are freely available. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.




nOOb alert

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  Reply # 391593 13-Oct-2010 23:21 Send private message

I for one CAN'T WAIT for the rule change to take place; brings us into line with the rest of the (right hand driving) world who all manage to give way to cars turning left. Our current law is counter intuitive and, if you have done a lot of driving overseas, you very soon realise that the law as it stands slows intersections down hugely but makes them considerably more dangerous.

New Zealand is the world's most dangerous RHD country to drive in (number of road deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, 2009 - International Transport Forum / OECD), we have a 29% higher mortality rate than Australia and 134% higher mortality rate than the UK on the roads. In NZ 11% of fatal road accidents occur at intersections (MoT, 2008) and the 15-19 year-olds are involved in more accidents than any other age band. What the hell are we doing letting 15 year-olds drive cars?

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