Give way rule changes

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Reply # 391633 14-Oct-2010 08:28
NickiB: Evolbob: The problem I posed was IMHO never addressed, that was how will years (33) of doing it one way will be overcome when the rules change? Apparently it will not be a problem: "When a similar change was made in Victoria, Australia in 1993 the crash rate actually dropped in the period immediately after the change and remained lower. A key reason for this was the widespread publicity about the change. It is also possible that people drove more carefully and were more watchful of others as they adjusted to the change." (link) It wasn't a problem, I lived there when it happened. It was brilliant and improved traffic flow tenfold. People also have to think that in the majority of cities, there is a right turn lane and not normally a left turn lane, so one car can hold up hundreds of cars going straight by not moving to the left to execute their left turn while the right turn lane from oncoming traffic ends up empty. This causes the knock-on effect where cars 3 intersections back are now stopped (a real pain is trucks in the queue that go through 9 gears to get to 50km/h again). Anybody here ever driven down Petone esplanade towards Seaview after 3pm on a weekday? All this can be avoided by allowing the ONE car turning left to go and the car coming from the opposite direction, in a turning lane (or as close to the centreline as possible), can wait for a break in traffic. You don't think that experts in cities with a population bigger than all NZ have thought about the rules and found the best way to keep traffic flowing? I know Melbourne traffic got better nearly overnight! Bring the change! Now, if only NZ drivers tried not doing-90-and-then-speeding-up-in-passing-lanes... disclaimer: I drive trucks both linehaul and local so my opinion may be biased, but I have seen this work and would love it to change in NZ... ASAP.

bazzer

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Reply # 391680 14-Oct-2010 10:31
NickiB: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I find this statement pretty funny, considering your view on the current give way rules. Are you ignorant? Am I? I still haven't found a definitive answer on this. I just can't back your view because it's nonsensical. Why would the give way rules apply to a car that can't even enter the intersection (i.e. the straight car stuck behind the left turning car?). The give way rules apply to cars entering the intersection (i.e. the first car from each lane/road). In your view if a car comes up from behind, the left turning car has the right of way right up until the instant the following car also indicates left. What happens if there's a car behind the two going left, do the rules apply to that car too? What if there's a queue of ten left turning cars and then a straight car, do all the left turning cars get to go? Seriously, how long have you been driving for that you've never had an issue because of this? Furthermore, the right hand turning car has only an obscured view of the left indicator of the second car in the queue, how are they expected to know if they are indicating or not? In your view of things, this indicator is critical, and the driver to whom it is critical can't even see it properly! Can someone help me out here? For closure, I need to know if either I am wrong or NickiB. I don't know anyone else that drives the same way she does. I'm happy to be wrong (unusual for me) but I really need to know now.

bazzer

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Reply # 391685 14-Oct-2010 10:43
NickiB: Another reference along these lines is from the document that kicked this change off: "The current give way rules place complex demands on road users. Currently, a driver turning left has to... check if there is any traffic coming from behind which will delay the right-turning vehicle". This is unfortunately still ambiguous, but in my eyes it simply has to mean check for any straight through traffic coming behind you, as the right turning car must give way to that traffic before it makes the turn; straight through traffic has first priority. How can a car stuck behind the left turning car "delay the right-turning vehicle"? I just think you (or I and everyone else I know) have the wrong end of the stick when it comes to this rule, and I think it's unfortunate that it seems to be impossible to find an unambiguous interpretation of the rules. Your link also mentions that the current rules create a crash risk "between right-turning vehicles and vehicles overtaking the left-turning vehicles". I think this is key. The risk is to vehicles overtaking the left-turning vehicle, not stuck behind them.

JonC

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Reply # 391688 14-Oct-2010 10:52
blakamin: It wasn't a problem, I lived there when it happened. It was brilliant and improved traffic flow tenfold. People also have to think that in the majority of cities, there is a right turn lane and not normally a left turn lane, so one car can hold up hundreds of cars going straight by not moving to the left to execute their left turn while the right turn lane from oncoming traffic ends up empty. ... My experience in London is that busy intersections never have unregulated right-hand turns. They either put in a lane for right-hand turns or they completely ban right-hand turns at that intersection. It is quite common in London to be driving along for ages on busy roads with no right-hand turns available. It improves traffic-flow enormously (and safety), but is a pain for navigation. I hope traffic engineers have a look at all the intersections before this rule comes into place and really think what the implications are. Where there are two lanes at an intersection, they should be grouped into left/straight and a separate one for right-only. Hopefully this is why it's taking so long, not just the RWC.

blakamin

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Reply # 391691 14-Oct-2010 10:58
JonC: I hope traffic engineers have a look at all the intersections before this rule comes into place and really think what the implications are. Where there are two lanes at an intersection, they should be grouped into left/straight and a separate one for right-only. Hopefully this is why it's taking so long, not just the RWC. Most towns and cities south of auckland (in the Nth Is) already have lanes like this... And this is the reason for congestion. Cars driving straight can't get through an intersection because somebody at the front, turning left, is holding up the straight through traffic by giving way to a vehicle that has its own lane and is not holding any traffic up anyway! Another example is SH1 Pukerua Bay. Any traffic southbound, turning right into a side street has a turning lane... Because of the current rules traffic ends up backed up for miles as one left turning, northbound vehicle holds up SH1 to give way to this one right-turning vehicle. How does that make sense? If the left turning vehicle could go, traffic would keep flowing and the right turning vehicle would wait for a natural break in traffic as opposed to waiting for a left turning vehicle and adding to the congestion!

JonC

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Reply # 391696 14-Oct-2010 11:04
blakamin: JonC: I hope traffic engineers have a look at all the intersections before this rule comes into place and really think what the implications are. Where there are two lanes at an intersection, they should be grouped into left/straight and a separate one for right-only. Hopefully this is why it's taking so long, not just the RWC. Most towns and cities south of auckland already have lanes like this... And this is the reason for congestion. Cars driving straight can't get through an intersection because somebody at the front, turning left, is holding up the straight through traffic by giving way to a vehicle that has its own lane and is not holding any traffic up anyway! Then they're all ready for the new law... Just going by this thread - there seems to be a real conflict about whether left-hand turning traffic should pull to the left to allow traffic behind it to overtake. With the new law this conflict should be ended as left-turning traffic won't need to give way to anyone in nearly all circumstances, so traffic behind them shouldn't need to over-take them. Hopefully the law change will be used as an excuse to re-think all intersections and we get more lane separations for turning traffic.... but probably not.

bazzer

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Reply # 391701 14-Oct-2010 11:05
blakamin: JonC: I hope traffic engineers have a look at all the intersections before this rule comes into place and really think what the implications are. Where there are two lanes at an intersection, they should be grouped into left/straight and a separate one for right-only. Hopefully this is why it's taking so long, not just the RWC. Most towns and cities south of auckland (in the Nth Is) already have lanes like this... And this is the reason for congestion. Cars driving straight can't get through an intersection because somebody at the front, turning left, is holding up the straight through traffic by giving way to a vehicle that has its own lane and is not holding any traffic up anyway! Another example is SH1 Pukerua Bay. Any traffic southbound, turning right into a side street has a turning lane... Because of the current rules traffic ends up backed up for miles as one left turning vehicle holds up SH1 to give way to this one right-turning vehicle. How does that make sense? If the left turning vehicle could go, traffic would keep flowing and the right turning vehicle would wait for a natural break in traffic as opposed to waiting for a left turning vehicle and adding to the congestion! But according to NickiB they can go because the left turning car has the right of way transferred to it from the straight traffic! I don't mean to sound like a broken record and I don't mean it to be a personal attack but it really seems that she doesn't understand the current rule. How will she cope over the new rule?!

JonC

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Reply # 391704 14-Oct-2010 11:16
bazzer: But according to NickiB they can go because the left turning car has the right of way transferred to it from the straight traffic! I don't mean to sound like a broken record and I don't mean it to be a personal attack but it really seems that she doesn't understand the current rule. How will she cope over the new rule?! It all comes down to whether cars behind a left-turning car overtake that car at the intersection or not. Some people are saying that it's fine to overtake a left-turning car at an intersection (and therefore block a right-turning vehicle) whereas other say that you shouldn't overtake a left-turning car. As has been pointed out by NickiB - the road-code is a bit ambiguous on this point.

bazzer

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Reply # 391709 14-Oct-2010 11:24
JonC: bazzer: But according to NickiB they can go because the left turning car has the right of way transferred to it from the straight traffic! I don't mean to sound like a broken record and I don't mean it to be a personal attack but it really seems that she doesn't understand the current rule. How will she cope over the new rule?! It all comes down to whether cars behind a left-turning car overtake that car at the intersection or not. Some people are saying that it's fine to overtake a left-turning car at an intersection (and therefore block a right-turning vehicle) whereas other say that you shouldn't overtake a left-turning car. As has been pointed out by NickiB - the road-code is a bit ambiguous on this point. That's a separate point. As far as I understand it NickiB is saying the fact that they can or will pass is irrelevant, the left turning car has right of way even if the straight car is stuck behind it! I think the road code is pretty clear about the fact that cars can pass turning cars providing they can do so safely (there are multiple references to turning cars doing their best to keep the road clear). I personally don't think this part is ambiguous at all.

blakamin

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Reply # 391711 14-Oct-2010 11:28
How many drivers in NZ know the rules or even use their mirrors? Instead they'll sit there, in the middle of the road (not as left as possible) and hold up miles of traffic! NZ Road Code: # If you are turning at an intersection, give way to all vehicles not turning. # If you are turning left at an intersection, give way to vehicles coming towards you that are turning right. Note: be aware of the traffic behind you. If you were in the blue car (turning left), vehicles travelling behind you may affect whether the truck (turning right) can turn or not. This all depends on if the driver of the left turning car is left enough that the driver of the right turning truck thinks that straight through traffic will be able to pass or not! It's unclear and needs to be changed! End of story!

JonC

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Reply # 391714 14-Oct-2010 11:32
bazzer: That's a separate point. As far as I understand it NickiB is saying the fact that they can or will pass is irrelevant, the left turning car has right of way even if the straight car is stuck behind it! I think the road code is pretty clear about the fact that cars can pass turning cars providing they can do so safely (there are multiple references to turning cars doing their best to keep the road clear). I personally don't think this part is ambiguous at all. I read NickiB's posts as saying that this is entirely the point and also a cause of confusion and danger. If the car behind the left-turning car is over-taking, then the right hand car must give way to the overtaking car and the left-turning car therefore can turn left when the right-turning car is waiting. This is especially true when there is a large queue of cars going straight ahead overtaking the left-turning car. If, as you said, the car behind the left-turning car is blocked from over-taking then it's business as usual - the right-turning car has right-of-way, but has to keep a close eye on the car that is behind the left-turning car in case they decide to over-take. And this is what causes a huge amount of confusion at intersections like this.

blakamin

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Reply # 391718 14-Oct-2010 11:36
And this: is another reason current NZ rules are stupid. How many people do this (supermarkets etc) without causing accidents?

JonC

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Reply # 391721 14-Oct-2010 11:38
blakamin: And this: is another reason current NZ rules are stupid. How many people do this (supermarkets etc) without causing accidents? Yeah - especially this one. Most t-junctions like this have a give-way sign where the red truck is, but for the ones that don't people in the red-truck position still give-way even though they don't have to.

Teeps

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Reply # 391741 14-Oct-2010 11:56
blakamin: And this: ? is another reason current NZ rules are stupid. How many people do this (supermarkets etc) without causing accidents? This is the rule that seems to be universally ignored. There are plenty of junctions like this (and I am on Miramar in Wellington so not exactly a rural location) but time after time when I'm at a junction waiting to turn right I have a car approach the junction indicating right who will just cut across the front of me. I'm not saying it isn't a silly rule as I think it is, but you can bet the same people wouldn't be happy if I hadn't given way to them if I was approaching them on the same road and was turning left. Firstly it's bad education to the reason why it's not adhered too but secondly it's not logical which is why it doesn't cross peoples minds that they should be giving way. The rule totally defeats the reason why a right turning vehicle is given priority to stop it being held in the middle of the road so why it is there I really don't know!

bazzer

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Reply # 391757 14-Oct-2010 12:17
JonC: bazzer: That's a separate point. As far as I understand it NickiB is saying the fact that they can or will pass is irrelevant, the left turning car has right of way even if the straight car is stuck behind it! I think the road code is pretty clear about the fact that cars can pass turning cars providing they can do so safely (there are multiple references to turning cars doing their best to keep the road clear). I personally don't think this part is ambiguous at all. I read NickiB's posts as saying that this is entirely the point and also a cause of confusion and danger. If the car behind the left-turning car is over-taking, then the right hand car must give way to the overtaking car and the left-turning car therefore can turn left when the right-turning car is waiting. This is especially true when there is a large queue of cars going straight ahead overtaking the left-turning car. If, as you said, the car behind the left-turning car is blocked from over-taking then it's business as usual - the right-turning car has right-of-way, but has to keep a close eye on the car that is behind the left-turning car in case they decide to over-take. And this is what causes a huge amount of confusion at intersections like this. This is what I'm trying to figure out. It seems to me that NickiB doesn't agree with this! "The rule, as written in legislation, is that a left turning car must give way to cars that are lawfully turning right. And right turning cars, if driving lawfully, must give way to oncoming traffic that is going straight. Therefore, a left turning car holding up straight through traffic is forcing the right turning driver to make the turn unlawfully!"

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