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1767 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 528327 2-Oct-2011 20:13 Send private message

nakedmolerat:
1080p:
Linuxluver:?NZ doesn't have a serious debt problem. But it is a lot worse now, at just under 30% of GDP than it was ?(only 18% of GDP) when National took office.?


What is your source for this data?


you can download it HERE

edit: if you look under the government sector, official government debt while under labour always below ~$20billion. since national took over, it has jumped over ~$40billion

This Time Series of Fiscal and Economic Indicators - Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2011 ? The Treasury - New Zealand also shows how badly National Have done. Note since National took power notice how all the figures have been getting worse, Total Crown net worth, Gross debt.
Labor had Core Crown revenue exceeding the Core Crown expenses, unlike what National are managing to do.



246 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 20

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  Reply # 528330 2-Oct-2011 20:21 Send private message

hellonearthisman:
nakedmolerat:
1080p:
Linuxluver:?NZ doesn't have a serious debt problem. But it is a lot worse now, at just under 30% of GDP than it was ?(only 18% of GDP) when National took office.?


What is your source for this data?


you can download it HERE

edit: if you look under the government sector, official government debt while under labour always below ~$20billion. since national took over, it has jumped over ~$40billion

This Time Series of Fiscal and Economic Indicators - Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2011 ? The Treasury - New Zealand also shows how badly National Have done. Note since National took power notice how all the figures have been getting worse, Total Crown net worth, Gross debt.
Labor had Core Crown revenue exceeding the Core Crown expenses, unlike what National are managing to do.




The figures appear to have started to get worse at about the same time as the global recession kicked in with a vengeance.

Do you suppose there is a connection there?





Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

300 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

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  Reply # 528332 2-Oct-2011 20:23 Send private message

nakedmolerat: watch THIS

i wish i can do something about it


You have the internet to see that website, so you're fine. Plus we have the Dol to go onto if you lose your job which will put us in more debt :)




Barry Murphy
ISPMap - New Zealand ISP map
Vibe Communications LTD - Business ISP and Wholesale Carrier



Any comments made by myself don't reflect the views of my employer, they are mine and mine alone

7350 posts

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  Reply # 528334 2-Oct-2011 21:20 Send private message

I can actually see them partially selling kiwibank in the future, as well as NZ post, and this probably isn't a bad thing. Why? because it was largely setup so small towns could still have a bank. However things have changed alot since it was setup, and many people now do online banking. and the need for physical branches is a lot less. My main bank is TSB, and I have never been into a branch, it can all be done via mail/online bank/phone these days.

The problem with selling assets is that once sold, you don't have anything else. The problem comes when the governments later have to buy assets back at rates far more than they are worth, when the companies are stripped of their assets. This is what labour did with NZ rail just before they lost the last election, if people with rose tinted glasses don't remember.

618 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 528355 2-Oct-2011 23:17 Send private message

John2010: It seems they do not teach economics in schools or if they do the teachers deliver it with a strong flavour of Labour/NZ First's political rhetoric Surprised.

Perhaps the guardians of the "family silver" can tell us what other businesses the government should buy or start, or do they think the current portfolio of government owned businesses comprises a perfect portfolio?


Economics? You mean that pseudo-science based on ideology rather than fact?
 

618 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 528356 2-Oct-2011 23:21 Send private message

MikeSkyrme: 
Um, no. 51% is more than half ownership retained by the Govt. This means 51% of potential profits are still retained.


Why settle for 51% of the profits when we can have 100% by NOT SELLING OUR ASSETS!


618 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 528358 2-Oct-2011 23:32 Send private message

icepicknz:
nakedmolerat: watch THIS

i wish i can do something about it


You have the internet to see that website, so you're fine. Plus we have the Dol to go onto if you lose your job which will put us in more debt :)


Not having the Dole is even more expensive to the country.


532 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 28


  Reply # 528402 3-Oct-2011 08:49 Send private message

Brendan:
John2010: It seems they do not teach economics in schools or if they do the teachers deliver it with a strong flavour of Labour/NZ First's political rhetoric Surprised.

Perhaps the guardians of the "family silver" can tell us what other businesses the government should buy or start, or do they think the current portfolio of government owned businesses comprises a perfect portfolio?


Economics? You mean that pseudo-science based on ideology rather than fact?
 


Thankyou for confirming that your views have no sound basis at all.

532 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 28


  Reply # 528405 3-Oct-2011 09:03 Send private message

John2010: ...Perhaps the guardians of the "family silver" can tell us what other businesses the government should buy or start, or do they think the current portfolio of government owned businesses comprises a perfect portfolio?


Well it seems that the guardians of the "family silver" have no opinion on the quality of the government's business portfolio. At the very least, given their opposition to partial ownership, I thought they would have been baying for the remaining approx. 25% of Air NZ to be mandatorily purchased from the current private owners but apparantly not.

Le's try another then - in what proportions do the guardians think the national debt should be divided between the private sector and government? It is relatively easy for the government to manage these proportions even to the extent of forcing it all onto the private sector as the previous government did (by taxing).

7748 posts

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  Reply # 528424 3-Oct-2011 10:05 Send private message

nakedmolerat:
Ragnor:
National: No tax changes, reduce spending


reduce spending? i doubt it - they have spent more than labour in one term

oh dont forget that national will sell our 'national assets' to make the balance book look better!


You have to be kidding.. in Labour's last term(s) they brought in Working for familes, 4% kiwisaver and interest free student loans.

Massive amount of spending.

7748 posts

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  Reply # 528426 3-Oct-2011 10:09 Send private message

Brendan:
MikeSkyrme: 
Um, no. 51% is more than half ownership retained by the Govt. This means 51% of potential profits are still retained.


Why settle for 51% of the profits when we can have 100% by NOT SELLING OUR ASSETS!



Remember when the phone system was state owned, 6 months to get a phone line connected.

892 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 528438 3-Oct-2011 10:51 Send private message

MikeSkyrme:
hellonearthisman:
nakedmolerat:
1080p:
Linuxluver:?NZ doesn't have a serious debt problem. But it is a lot worse now, at just under 30% of GDP than it was ?(only 18% of GDP) when National took office.?


What is your source for this data?


you can download it HERE

edit: if you look under the government sector, official government debt while under labour always below ~$20billion. since national took over, it has jumped over ~$40billion

This Time Series of Fiscal and Economic Indicators - Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2011 ? The Treasury - New Zealand also shows how badly National Have done. Note since National took power notice how all the figures have been getting worse, Total Crown net worth, Gross debt.
Labor had Core Crown revenue exceeding the Core Crown expenses, unlike what National are managing to do.




The figures appear to have started to get worse at about the same time as the global recession kicked in with a vengeance.

Do you suppose there is a connection there?



Don't be silly! that would mean that everyone couldn't blame the government for the debt!

To be honest, I am sick to death about the whole blame game when it comes to this.  It is the same old argument each time. Labour supporters blame National, National supporters blame Labour. People on the fence blame the current government.

There is no magic pill/choice that will help get NZ out of debt. As said by Johnr, focus on clearing your own debts if you have any first.

Oh, and if you have a large debt, how about thinking of a way to quickly clear it and then let the government know so they can do the same for NZ's debt?

/rant 

244 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 528449 3-Oct-2011 11:27 Send private message

Controlling Government debt is a real election issue and in general I have found Geekzone a great source for discussion and I'm interested in joining in!

I think its fair to say that the increase or decrease in Government debt is a result of running a surplus or deficit?

The surplus (or deficit) is surely a result of Income less Expenditure?

Government income is a result of the tax rate and the prevailing economic activity?

Government expenditure is directly controlled by the Government (although earthquakes etc may force their hand)?

Each of these warrants discussion, I am interested in thoughts on Government expenditure as a starting point - separate thread?

So much to discuss, so I can see discussion quickly getting OT and onto tangents - I am interested in the tangents, but this discussion seems to be about Government debt and how to control it so hopefully this keeps to topic. 

Some thoughts on Government Expenditure for feedback

Social Security and Welfare
This National Government has spent far more on Social Security and welfare - why? Is it a result of the global downturn, subsequent recession, and higher unemployment rate or something else?

Health
Each successive government increases health spending at 8% per annum, can we as a country afford to sustain this increase even though we all want a better health system?

Education
The current Government has increased spending on Education - can we afford it, does it lead to a return on investment?

Core Government Services
The numbers I have seem to be all over the place - any ideas?

Law and Order
The current Government has reduced the annual increase in spending from 8% to 5%. My question is similar to health - everyone wants more money spent, but can we afford to increase spending every year forever?

Defence
The reverse of Law and order  - The current Government has increased spending at 8% per year - can we afford to sustain this?

Transport and Communications/Economic and Industrial Services/The Rest
These areas seem to show the largest change as a result of the change in Government. The previous Labour Government doubled spending in these areas over nine years. The current Government have marginally reduced spending in these areas.

Sources - https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=1WW1UAPKLuxl5YHH-hsYSpI_rd_KWJUQLSbCYYL3bem0&hl=en_GB

Original Document - http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/data/fiscaltimeseries1972-2010-yearend10.xls

EDIT: Grammar only









1770 posts

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  Reply # 528502 3-Oct-2011 13:29 Send private message

Getting past the political merits of any party, New Zealand is a pretty small fish in the global sea of international trade of goods and services. Because of that we don't really have a lot of control over which way our economy goes when globally things are in turmoil. At best we have some control over the ride, but we have none over the direction.

To think that we'd be in a significantly better position had we not changed our government at the last election suggests you're stuck looking through Labour-rose tinted specs rather than clear lenses, whatever you political leanings. In a recession everyone gets pain.

Similarly, you're probably wearing those same glasses to compare the proposal to sell off 49% of something with selling off the whole thing. Historically BOTH MAJOR PARTIES have sold off assets to raise capital to retire debt... it's not that they shouldn't have, it's the model they used.

Soo... back to national debt and current or historical policies or politics aside. If our financial (banking) systems are predominantly owned by offshore interests, then are we ever going to be in a position to realistically reduce our national debt??

For despite what some folk say about our debt being made up of ipads, flatscreen TVs' and credit card debt, there's a lot more foreign money tied up in our mortgages.


925 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 528505 3-Oct-2011 13:36 Send private message

Man the scare scaremongering in this thread is awesome.
Partial sales is not selling everything.
Labour cultivated a culture of handouts and a sense of entitlement. Don't worry about getting a job, the state will make the rich pay for you.
National under John key is the best government we have had in my living memory. I was so happy when uncle Helen was given the boot. We are still sorting the damage she did and who knows what else is going to pop out of the woodwork that was her and her cronies work.
More BMWs? More millions spent on the some silly boat?
At least John is honest and listens.

But hey, wouldn't it by funny to see Goff win? I reckon it would take him all of 2 months to catch up to Greece lol



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