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  Reply # 535470 20-Oct-2011 10:04 Send private message

Just curious if anyone knows if there has been any polling done on this as to what percentage of the population actually supports it? When you think about it, it's quite clever marketing to say "We are the 99%", obviously implying that the movement is large, whereas it might only be that 5 or 10 percent of people support it.

At the risk of repeating myself or re-stating the obvious, thought I layout a clean sheet vision of the issue and the 99%.

The 99% figure is representative of all of those who are not politicians or bankers or financial market gurus who control the numbers which are used by financiers and politicians to set policy which at the end of the day, impacts upon the rest (99%) of us.

Just as you need $$$ to live happily ever after, banks will happily commit you to your own debt molehill (mortgage & credit cards). Which gives them the power to control your lifestyle, thru your spending (their credit), and your disposable income (their interest payments).
Now thats the micro view, but turn that up by a factor of millions and its how the financial markets control countries. By dictating the terms of their debt.

But at this level they deal with politicians, who'll happily borrow more to promise what it'll take to keep them in power (more debt). More debt to the financial institutions more power to them... less to government

Soo... governmental power moves from the politicians to the corporates, what can they do?? Fortunately politicians are vote driven... people power can manipulate the political landscape in the hope that things will change. As for what and how, thats an individual choice.

As always on the fringes of these things you'll get the radicals and the militants who'll be more violent in protest, and risk (because they simply know no better) destabilising the whole thing. And that's why the results of 'occupy' vary across countries.

But the difference this time around for this type of protest is twofold, firstly it's 'the-internet'. Where previously movements of dissatisfaction have been localised now it's easier to get others involved globally. Just as it's easier for those involved to research things and have a greater understanding. And secondly, of course, we're in recessionary times.
When you're down to being able to see the bottom of your credit line it's far easier to look back up and see how big it is and ponder how you got to make the hole sooo large.

When you're able to manage your credit card and have a regular job it all seems a bit pointless, a bit 'I'm-not-one-of-the-99%'.... but step back a bit and look at the bigger picture, at Greece and Ireland, and Spain and Portugal and France and Italy and New Zealand and America....

Printing money and buying iphones won't change the financial landscape. It won't change whether you're a 1 percenter or a 99 percenter. You may not want to be a 99% kind of a guy buy when voting time comes along you'll cast your vote. And down stream you'll moan about about the political rhetoric and direction and wonder why things are done the way the are...because there must be a better way. Right??

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  Reply # 535478 20-Oct-2011 10:17 Send private message

oxnsox:
Just curious if anyone knows if there has been any polling done on this as to what percentage of the population actually supports it? When you think about it, it's quite clever marketing to say "We are the 99%", obviously implying that the movement is large, whereas it might only be that 5 or 10 percent of people support it.

At the risk of repeating myself or re-stating the obvious, thought I layout a clean sheet vision of the issue and the 99%.

The 99% figure is representative of all of those who are not politicians or bankers or financial market gurus who control the numbers which are used by financiers and politicians to set policy which at the end of the day, impacts upon the rest (99%) of us.

Just as you need $$$ to live happily ever after, banks will happily commit you to your own debt molehill (mortgage & credit cards). Which gives them the power to control your lifestyle, thru your spending (their credit), and your disposable income (their interest payments).
Now thats the micro view, but turn that up by a factor of millions and its how the financial markets control countries. By dictating the terms of their debt.

But at this level they deal with politicians, who'll happily borrow more to promise what it'll take to keep them in power (more debt). More debt to the financial institutions more power to them... less to government

Soo... governmental power moves from the politicians to the corporates, what can they do?? Fortunately politicians are vote driven... people power can manipulate the political landscape in the hope that things will change. As for what and how, thats an individual choice.

As always on the fringes of these things you'll get the radicals and the militants who'll be more violent in protest, and risk (because they simply know no better) destabilising the whole thing. And that's why the results of 'occupy' vary across countries.

But the difference this time around for this type of protest is twofold, firstly it's 'the-internet'. Where previously movements of dissatisfaction have been localised now it's easier to get others involved globally. Just as it's easier for those involved to research things and have a greater understanding. And secondly, of course, we're in recessionary times.
When you're down to being able to see the bottom of your credit line it's far easier to look back up and see how big it is and ponder how you got to make the hole sooo large.

When you're able to manage your credit card and have a regular job it all seems a bit pointless, a bit 'I'm-not-one-of-the-99%'.... but step back a bit and look at the bigger picture, at Greece and Ireland, and Spain and Portugal and France and Italy and New Zealand and America....

Printing money and buying iphones won't change the financial landscape. It won't change whether you're a 1 percenter or a 99 percenter. You may not want to be a 99% kind of a guy buy when voting time comes along you'll cast your vote. And down stream you'll moan about about the political rhetoric and direction and wonder why things are done the way the are...because there must be a better way. Right??


So, umm, at the risk of repeating myself, how many people are actually following this? What are the statistical facts? Where are the polling results to show that 5,10,20,40,50,80,99 percent of people are supportive of this?

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  Reply # 535492 20-Oct-2011 10:36 Send private message

Byrned:

By and large I am happy with the status quo. Sure there are some things that need to change, but mostly I think the system works. To date, I have seen no creditable alternative to the current system apart from complaining about the system.

The revolutionaries from the past that have been pointed to set out with a clear goal of what the wanted. So, without an idea of what is wanted, lets shelve talk of revolution as it's not just pointless, it's dangerous. Taking down the current system with no idea of what you want to achieve will only lead to anarchism, and I for one do not want to live on the streets of Baghdad or Mogadishu.


First off, thank you for a clear, concise opposing view that address the questions at hand, rather than the ignorant dribble that has been posted.

To address the above, you being happy with the status quo is what they depend on. As long as you are personally satisfied, what need is there for you to be concerned with those less well off than you. That attitude remains constant within our society.

I hear a lot of this "unless you have a solution, shut up" rhetoric which devoid of any analysis. Think about that.. What that means is unless you have an answer simply asking the question is a waste of time? When has that ever been true? What about the great philosophers of our time, theoretical physicists and the like. Asking profound questions that encourages others to think is one of the few traits that distinguish us from the other animals..

The part about Baghdad & Mogadishu, you do realise that they are both capitalistic, and democratic right? (well faux democracy that exceeds even our faux democracy). In fact a lot of third world countries are both capitalistic and democratic. Big differences being over crowding and lack of resources, and the 1st world countries like us, deliberately manipulating a system we created. These are problems that we will all face if we do honestly address the issues.

Byrned:
From what I understand the whole "Occupy Wall St" movement is about, it's about excessive greed and corporate control of the US. These are two things that I don't think you can just take and unilaterally apply to NZ. Sure, we have some people that earn over a million bucks a year, but from what I see, it?s a handful at best. And we certainly don?t anything like the same lobbying that they do in the US to persuade those in Government. This is best showed by the ?Corruption Perceptions Index? which shows the misuse of power for personal gain. New Zealand ranks equal as the best country in the world. The US is ranked at number 22.


Not anymore, we are up to our eyeballs in it. Every "great" idea being introduced here has tried and has failed in the US (3 strikes anyone), in fact our very PM is a currency trader from the honourable (/sarcasm) company of Merril Lynch. (google their history)

Byrned:
I think it is unfortunate that something that has started as a good idea has suffered because of a lack of leadership, and a lack of a clear and concise direction. By our own nature we need leadership and if there was more of it, more people would most likely agree with some of the things being said.


Thats the beauty of it, no head to cut off, no leader to arrest, they may try, but they cannot imprison us all. A nameless, faceless majority that cannot be stopped.

Byrned:
As it stands this movement just feels like it is for everyone that is not happy with their lot in life. I?m not saying everyone that is involved is this way, but can you see from the otherside how we?re looking at this? We don?t know what it?s about (that question was asked numerous times at the start of the thread, and not really answered until well into it), and we just see the same people complaining. Of course those of us that are happy (or even just ok) wil not get it. It doesn?t mean we don?t want to know. But it sure seems like a lot of people caught up in this don?t even really know what it?s about, or maybe just don?t care and are using it as a way to promote their own agenda.
And sorry in advance if my thinking is a little all over the place. Been battling Pneumonia all week.


Im very happy with my lot, I own companies, benefit greatly from capitalism, but I came from the streets, I understand both sides of the game, and recognise how I get rewarded for corporate behaviour, while the average citizen get robbed daily.

If they system requires that millions starve so we can have tvs, & cellphones, can it really be that great?

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  Reply # 535518 20-Oct-2011 11:18 Send private message

Byrned:
So, umm, at the risk of repeating myself, how many people are actually following this? What are the statistical facts? Where are the polling results to show that 5,10,20,40,50,80,99 percent of people are supportive of this?

Don't know...don't really care....right now. And does it really matter?
Polls are for politicians. Numbers and percentages don't predetermine anything more than you want them to.
You may not actually be involved, but it may involve you.
You might not be supportive of it, but does it stop you following it???
And really is your direction determined by the majority(?), the minority(?), or by yourself.

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  Reply # 535538 20-Oct-2011 11:50 Send private message

MikeyPI: 

I hear a lot of this "unless you have a solution, shut up" rhetoric which devoid of any analysis. Think about that.. What that means is unless you have an answer simply asking the question is a waste of time? When has that ever been true? What about the great philosophers of our time, theoretical physicists and the like. Asking profound questions that encourages others to think is one of the few traits that distinguish us from the other animals..
 

I won't ever say asking a question is a bad thing. I would more so say the opposite that not asking is a bad thing. But from the outside of this movement is that there are a whole of questions asked, but it would appear that no one has an answer. So how can change be demanded if we don't know what we're changing to? So, what is that we're doing then? Are we demanding change or demanding a better option?
  
MikeyPI: 
The part about Baghdad & Mogadishu, you do realise that they are both capitalistic, and democratic right? (well faux democracy that exceeds even our faux democracy). In fact a lot of third world countries are both capitalistic and democratic. Big differences being over crowding and lack of resources, and the 1st world countries like us, deliberately manipulating a system we created. These are problems that we will all face if we do honestly address the issues.
 

Baghdad is an example of liberlisation that has gone bad, and is a battle of idealism. It's really a perfect example of not having a plan that the majority agree upon and work towards. You could equally say capitalism is changing China from the closed society that it is towards a more open one, albiet still ruled by communism. Think back 20 years to the Tiananmen Square massacre in 89 and compare the attitudes of the government then to now and what just happened to that todler. I think most people would agree that you would want the attitudes to change faster, but we're all happy that they are changing. And change, especially in people, takes time. If it didn't, we probably wouldn't have racism in the world today.  

MikeyPI: 
Not anymore, we are up to our eyeballs in it. Every "great" idea being introduced here has tried and has failed in the US (3 strikes anyone), in fact our very PM is a currency trader from the honourable (/sarcasm) company of Merril Lynch. (google their history)  
  

And we also have policies that have been introduced that aren't found in the US. And I would rather have someone who has been succesful in business represent me than someone who has led a laregly accademic life. Ideallogy this is one of my grounding issues that I've had with a number of politicians, who mainly end up on the left. Saying that there are some that I really do respect, and continue to do great work in parliment. 

MikeyPI: 
Thats the beauty of it, no head to cut off, no leader to arrest, they may try, but they cannot imprison us all. A nameless, faceless majority that cannot be stopped. 
 

And it's also why it is doomed to failure. This will fizzle and die over time, unless leaders emerge. The vast majority of people crave direction. This is why religion has held such a strong grasp over people, and is one of the reasons why religion exists in the first place. 
  
MikeyPI:  
Im very happy with my lot, I own companies, benefit greatly from capitalism, but I came from the streets, I understand both sides of the game, and recognise how I get rewarded for corporate behaviour, while the average citizen get robbed daily.
 


I could put words in your mouth there but I know what you're saying Laughing

 From what I see, this is a problem really of the US. It's not to say that we don't have some cases of excesive greed in this country, but it is only some. At the other end of the scale, I know people who are second generation beneficiaries, who plan out when to have kids to maximise their benefit. They're friends of the family and don't really care that they're equally robbing the average citizen.

Small problems here, can be dealt with with small solutions, and not wholesale change because a few things aren't working. And that gets back to my whole point. Unless you can point to a better way to do something, I'm going to find it hard to agree with this.

MikeyPI:       
If they system requires that millions starve so we can have tvs, & cellphones, can it really be that great?


Would liquidating the system actually create anything to change this? Saying that, I don't want you to think I'm in favour of people starving just so western society can have their toys. But under communism, and socialism we've still had millions of people starving.

I would think the best solution is capitalism with democratic regulation. Right there is an answer. Is it the right answer. Well i think so, but it is also the solution we currently haveMaybe the regulation isn't right, but the system is not broken.   

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  Reply # 535550 20-Oct-2011 12:05 Send private message

oxnsox:
Byrned: So, umm, at the risk of repeating myself, how many people are actually following this? What are the statistical facts? Where are the polling results to show that 5,10,20,40,50,80,99 percent of people are supportive of this?


Don't know...don't really care....right now. And does it really matter? 


Yes it does. It is claimed this is a worldwide movement, but if it's a relative few, it would be like me saying my bowel movement this morning is a worldwide movement. 

oxnsox:   Polls are for politicians. Numbers and percentages don't predetermine anything more than you want them to.


Polls are for politicians? Umm, no. Polls just let you know what the majority actually think, and not just those with the loudest voice. Politicians do use them to gague popular opinion, as they rely on this to get voted.    

oxnsox:   You may not actually be involved, but it may involve you. You might not be supportive of it, but does it stop you following it??? And really is your direction determined by the majority(?), the minority(?), or by yourself.
 
 
Is that a limmerick?    

And I would ask you the same question as to your direction. All I've seen so far is what looks like regurgitation of others. To quote another post, how about some original thought?

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  Reply # 535563 20-Oct-2011 12:26 Send private message

Pretty damn sure the 1% is the people complaining...

gzt

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  Reply # 535669 20-Oct-2011 16:35 Send private message

Byrned: Just curious if anyone knows if there has been any polling done on this as to what percentage of the population actually supports it? When you think about it, it's quite clever marketing to say "We are the 99%", obviously implying that the movement is large, whereas it might only be that 5 or 10 percent of people support it. I mean, even if you said there are 400,000 people supporting this in New York, thats still only 5% of the cities population.

In New York City, very strong support:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-protests-idUSTRE79G55O20111017?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71

67% rather than the obvious 99% ;  ). The poll was conducted by a university, no idea of the methodology. Assuming they do this kind of thing regularly, methodology should be good, but I have not checked the source.

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  Reply # 535756 20-Oct-2011 18:49 Send private message

Byrned:  
 

Removed the body so it stayed readable... You understand my point & I yours. 

Well put & I dont really disagree with too much. Im not in favor of liquidating the current system, but it will come to that if we dont address it.

A system of infinite growth on a planet of finite resources is doomed to failure, and unless someone can point me to the math that disproves it, its a mathematical fact...

I think your post about millions starving under communism & socialism is niave, we have milllions starving under capitalism, however its usually ethnics, and since their lives arent as valuable its okay? (hyperbole - i would be considered ethnic).

As to the dole bludgers, how much of the social welfare budget goes to beneficiaries, and how many of those beneficiaries are gaming the system?. We're talking a tiny sliver here, the biggest welfare recipients are people on the pension, followed by corporate welfare, then the millions we pay to "professional" sport, then the immoral bloat of middle managers in the social welfare dept, and finally the politicians themselves with endless perks, kickbacks and obscene salary... After all that would be the miniscule number of entrenched dole bludgers.. 


 Any ways thanks again, relieving to have an proper conversation!

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  Reply # 535764 20-Oct-2011 18:55 Send private message

By the way, all of you that say that you do support capitalism but do not support the government, thats a bit two faced. The politicians are hired by the corporation "HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF NEW ZEALAND" (fact, see here: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0000216105). In a previous post someone said thats true capitalism...

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  Reply # 535968 21-Oct-2011 08:44 Send private message

MikeyPI:


I do agree completley about the fact that you cannot continue to expand forever, and at the end of the day for someone to succeed (greater than the rate of inflation), someone needs to loose, and therein is one of the downsides of capitalism.

Realistically for any change to the system to succeed, it need's to allieviate peoples fears, and the main fear of the majority is that if they help someone below them, they'll end up at the bottom themselves. So while people are happy to give a few dollars here and there to charities and the like, wholesale change will overwhelm any altruistic feeling that they may have. Why are most people happy with democracy? Because they know for the most part that what they do today, will equal a predetermined result tomorrow. It was interesting after the fall of communism in Russia, a study was done a few years later and there was an overwhelming desire to return to communism. Ask the same question 20 years on and i'll bet it'll be a very different answer.  I'll see if I can find a link to the study that shows this. Read it about a year or so ago.
Oh, and the comment about "dole blugers" was just to make the point that you get people working a system no matter where they are in it.  

Agree to disagree on some things, somewhere in the middle on others and agree about the proper debate!

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  Reply # 535979 21-Oct-2011 09:10 Send private message

codyc1515: By the way, all of you that say that you do support capitalism but do not support the government, thats a bit two faced. The politicians are hired by the corporation "HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF NEW ZEALAND" (fact, see here: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0000216105). In a previous post someone said thats true capitalism...


That's not a corporation.  If you have a look, it has the SIC of 8888, which stands for "Foreign Government".  It exists on their records only so they can report on government accounts as governments do issue securities in the form of treasury bonds, etc.  If you click on the SIC on that screen, you'll see a listing of many, many governments - none of whom are corporations (you do see some government owned funds such as the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation).

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  Reply # 536116 21-Oct-2011 13:13 Send private message

Kyanar:
codyc1515: By the way, all of you that say that you do support capitalism but do not support the government, thats a bit two faced. The politicians are hired by the corporation "HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF NEW ZEALAND" (fact, see here: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0000216105). In a previous post someone said thats true capitalism...


That's not a corporation.  If you have a look, it has the SIC of 8888, which stands for "Foreign Government".  It exists on their records only so they can report on government accounts as governments do issue securities in the form of treasury bonds, etc.  If you click on the SIC on that screen, you'll see a listing of many, many governments - none of whom are corporations (you do see some government owned funds such as the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation).

OK, we're heading off topic again but if you look into it nearly all governments are corporations. I don't suppose you'd try to tell me that London is not a corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation)? I suppose you'd also try to tell me that "JAPAN DEVELOPMENT BANK" is a "Foreign Government".

gzt

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  Reply # 536314 21-Oct-2011 22:51 Send private message

Checked the source of the poll result above. The university has a dedicated polling institute which is widely respected by media outlets, mainly because the institute does not perform polling for 3rd parties or accept funding or requests for polls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac_University_Poll 

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  Reply # 537180 25-Oct-2011 09:54 Send private message

Did someone just quote Wikipedia?

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