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196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 568682 14-Jan-2012 01:44 Send private message

Cloudmelon:
KissySellOut:
Email me if you want to debate this properly :P

KissySellOut


What was it you were doing up till now then? 


Have you heard about 'curiosity killed the cat'? 
  

196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 568683 14-Jan-2012 01:58 Send private message

Wade: If Government don't step in and bail out their respective economies surely this would lead to the demise of much business, business whose ripples effect many other nations. If the EU and USA economies die then NZ would die too as we generate wealth by exporting which requires international buyers

By my logic, lack of bailout puts other "innocent" nations at financial risk, why would we want to prevent governments doing the right thing globally?


US government has to do bailout, at same time they have to print a lot of money causing the inflation which still affects domestic and international economy badly. No matter bail out or not, it is the working class people pay the debts and bills. Because bailout is not a good solution, that why people shouting for a change.
  

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  Reply # 568687 14-Jan-2012 06:52 Send private message

listudio:
Wade: If Government don't step in and bail out their respective economies surely this would lead to the demise of much business, business whose ripples effect many other nations. If the EU and USA economies die then NZ would die too as we generate wealth by exporting which requires international buyers

By my logic, lack of bailout puts other "innocent" nations at financial risk, why would we want to prevent governments doing the right thing globally?


US government has to do bailout, at same time they have to print a lot of money causing the inflation which still affects domestic and international economy badly. No matter bail out or not, it is the working class people pay the debts and bills. Because bailout is not a good solution, that why people shouting for a change.
  


They do not bail out by just printing more money, they fund it from, assets sales, reserves, taxes or borrowing.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 568689 14-Jan-2012 08:06 Send private message

But how do the working class pay their debts or taxes if the compnay they work for goes belly up because it wasn't bailed out?

I think i would (begrudgingly) pay additional tax to secure my employment?

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  Reply # 568818 14-Jan-2012 15:46 Send private message

Wade: But how do the working class pay their debts or taxes if the compnay they work for goes belly up because it wasn't bailed out?

I think i would (begrudgingly) pay additional tax to secure my employment?


Bailing out private companies is a serious moral hazard.

The little guy won't be seeing any bailouts. Bailouts have gone only to large companies because they spend millions on funding campaign contributions and lobbying is not part of the solution, it's part of the problem.

This is crony capitalism at it's worst, if the US actually practised real capitalism they would have never got in this mess.

They way it should have been handled is that private financial companies taking massive risks should have failed with the owners & investors losing their money.

The US government could have nationalised bank deposits and viable loans that the failed company held, creating a temporary SOE to stabilise things in order to get things back in order to later be sold off/privatised.

See how Iceland, Argentina and Sweden handled their banking/financial issues in the past.

What we have now in the US and Europe is zombie banks, investors/owners/top tier workers making out like bandits still taking massive risks with the public footing the bill for the losses, private profits, public losses. That's outrageous and untenable.

Also some guys ruining the grass in Wellington will have no effect whatsoever on fixing this problem.

gzt

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  Reply # 568831 14-Jan-2012 16:23 Send private message

Ragnor: They way it should have been handled is that private financial companies taking massive risks should have failed with the owners & investors losing their money.

Maybe, maybe not. The disruption would have been massive with many many cascading failures. You would have seen probably far more job losses and far more marching in the streets with that scenario. The bailout was a pragmatic alternative to that.

The central cause of the crisis was that massive risks were not recognised, and were in fact rated by many well known agencies as very very low risk of ever occurring ever ever. Add to that key personnel from many firms moving into and out of influential government regulatory roles.

At least in your scenario - some kind of presidential commission, fbi investigations, prosecutions and jail time would have been very likely due to public demand and protest.

In the US, they bailed out whole companies at the top of the financial system and kept them running from the inside. These companies were central to the market.

In NZ they bailed out the investors.

It is interesting to look at the failures in NZ in which investors were bailed out by NZ's Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. These failures were typical NZ finance company type failures (disorganised, overspending, utterly crap governance) which really had almost no relationship to the world financial crisis of the time. In the case of South Canterbury Finance (SCF) regulators were aware of severe problems long before the RDGS was even conceived.

196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 568939 14-Jan-2012 22:26 Send private message


What we have now in the US and Europe is zombie banks, investors/owners/top tier workers making out like bandits still taking massive risks with the public footing the bill for the losses, private profits, public losses. That's outrageous and untenable.

Also some guys ruining the grass in Wellington will have no effect whatsoever on fixing this problem.

I guess that NZ protest is a part of US Occupy’s plan, may be not initiated by the locals. 

If there was no one protesting on the street or 'ruining' the grass, we wouldn't discuss the issues here, and people wouldn't take notices of these big issues. I personally don't believe that the Occupy can actually help with any practical solutions with those problems. It s about making 'noises' and passing on the messages to the public. But people seem focus more on individuals than the ideas.

196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 568954 14-Jan-2012 23:15 Send private message

Wade: But how do the working class pay their debts or taxes if the compnay they work for goes belly up because it wasn't bailed out? 



The government doesn’t have $ to bail out the companies, so the US government is very clever, they find the easiest way to get $ is to print money (pls do not copy this with real action). Money itself only has the paper value. For example, 100 bucks note  is actual a piece of paper. Money is an exchange tool to help people exchanging the products they produce. So money is a tool helping the programmers here (for example) to get their daily bread and prevent them from starving to death.  But if money print is not based on the actual production it would cause the money depreciation, which means the programmers here may pay more money for their bread. But bread is still affordable for them not like the low income class people, if things are getting serious, all prices of the living necessity would be going up which would affects poor people and families severely.  That is why working class people eventually pay the bills of the bail out.
   

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  Reply # 568990 15-Jan-2012 03:57 Send private message

gzt: 
Maybe, maybe not. The disruption would have been massive with many many cascading failures. You would have seen probably far more job losses and far more marching in the streets with that scenario. The bailout was a pragmatic alternative to that.


It would have been short term pain, long term gain... the current approach has only kicked the can a wee bit down the road. The problems are not gone at all.

Regarding NZ finance companies... 

Mark Hotchin and Hanover. neither person, individual or corporate has cost the taxpayer a cent. Investor's lost their money for making a bad choice in going for the higher returns from a non bank. People who put all their eggs in one basket learnt a basic lesson the hard way. 

South Canterbury Finance (SCF) was welfare for the South Island, it should have never been in the retail deposit scheme and breached the conditions numerous times and wasn't kicked out.



196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 569108 15-Jan-2012 14:34 Send private message

listudio:
Wade: But how do the working class pay their debts or taxes if the compnay they work for goes belly up because it wasn't bailed out? 



The government doesn’t have $ to bail out the companies, so the US government is very clever, they find the easiest way to get $ is to print money (pls do not copy this with real action). Money itself only has the paper value. For example, 100 bucks note  is actual a piece of paper. Money is an exchange tool to help people exchanging the products they produce. So money is a tool helping the programmers here (for example) to get their daily bread and prevent them from starving to death.  But if money print is not based on the actual production it would cause the money depreciation, which means the programmers here may pay more money for their bread. But bread is still affordable for them not like the low income class people, if things are getting serious, all prices of the living necessity would be going up which would affects poor people and families severely.  That is why working class people eventually pay the bills of the bail out.
   


Wade, I misread your question.If the companies didn’t get the bailout and going bankruptcy, it would cause high rate of unemployment, and more people live on the social benefits, also would have more social disturbance. Still  its working people (tax payers) pay the price.

gzt

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  Reply # 569120 15-Jan-2012 15:10 Send private message

Ragnor: South Canterbury Finance (SCF) was welfare for the South Island, it should have never been in the retail deposit scheme and breached the conditions numerous times and wasn't kicked out.

More like election insurance. Either major party would have done the same thing in power for that reason.

gzt

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  Reply # 569122 15-Jan-2012 15:15 Send private message

listudio: Wade, I misread your question.If the companies didn’t get the bailout and going bankruptcy, it would cause high rate of unemployment, and more people live on the social benefits, also would have more social disturbance. Still  its working people (tax payers) pay the price.

From what I have read on the monetary side, the US Govt has fully got it's money back. On the non-monetary side there were a lot of job losses etc.

In NZ the situation is a bit different. Most of the companies bailed were nowhere near the top of the system, and on the monetary side the Government is not getting back all of the money.

196 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 569130 15-Jan-2012 15:39 Send private message

gzt:
listudio: Wade, I misread your question.If the companies didn’t get the bailout and going bankruptcy, it would cause high rate of unemployment, and more people live on the social benefits, also would have more social disturbance. Still  its working people (tax payers) pay the price.

From what I have read on the monetary side, the US Govt has fully got it's money back. On the non-monetary side there were a lot of job losses etc.

In NZ the situation is a bit different. Most of the companies bailed were nowhere near the top of the system, and on the monetary side the Government is not getting back all of the money.

The US government got its money back by printing money, rob the money from the US people and the overseas investors, such as China, and Chinese people paid their bills as well, I am one of the victims.

46 posts

Geek


  Reply # 569143 15-Jan-2012 16:09 Send private message

listudio:

What we have now in the US and Europe is zombie banks, investors/owners/top tier workers making out like bandits still taking massive risks with the public footing the bill for the losses, private profits, public losses. That's outrageous and untenable.

Also some guys ruining the grass in Wellington will have no effect whatsoever on fixing this problem.

I guess that NZ protest is a part of US Occupy’s plan, may be not initiated by the locals. 

If there was no one protesting on the street or 'ruining' the grass, we wouldn't discuss the issues here, and people wouldn't take notices of these big issues. I personally don't believe that the Occupy can actually help with any practical solutions with those problems. It s about making 'noises' and passing on the messages to the public. But people seem focus more on individuals than the ideas.


I really don't think many people are focusing more on individuals here, what's being discussed is largely the cause for Occupy and peoples opinions thereof, not who's in it. Oh and by the way, my bank just cut another 3,500 jobs - how exactly is bailing out an affective solution when it essentially gives failing businesses false hope? There has to be numerous other (and better) ways around this. Throwing money at them is like giving a few blown up balloons to a sinking ship and its crew. Nice gesture, but doesn't stop the fact that the ship is still sinking.

KissySellOut

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  Reply # 569150 15-Jan-2012 16:36 Send private message

KissySellOut:
listudio:

What we have now in the US and Europe is zombie banks, investors/owners/top tier workers making out like bandits still taking massive risks with the public footing the bill for the losses, private profits, public losses. That's outrageous and untenable.

Also some guys ruining the grass in Wellington will have no effect whatsoever on fixing this problem.

I guess that NZ protest is a part of US Occupy’s plan, may be not initiated by the locals. 

If there was no one protesting on the street or 'ruining' the grass, we wouldn't discuss the issues here, and people wouldn't take notices of these big issues. I personally don't believe that the Occupy can actually help with any practical solutions with those problems. It s about making 'noises' and passing on the messages to the public. But people seem focus more on individuals than the ideas.


I really don't think many people are focusing more on individuals here, what's being discussed is largely the cause for Occupy and peoples opinions thereof, not who's in it. Oh and by the way, my bank just cut another 3,500 jobs - how exactly is bailing out an affective solution when it essentially gives failing businesses false hope? There has to be numerous other (and better) ways around this. Throwing money at them is like giving a few blown up balloons to a sinking ship and its crew. Nice gesture, but doesn't stop the fact that the ship is still sinking.

KissySellOut


Was this in New Zealand?




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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