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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 534238 17-Oct-2011 12:02 Send private message

TheUngeek: Oh no! It's the Illuminati!


It's somewhat perverse that you dismiss all evidence while presenting none.

It  makes your case look.....non-existent. 




____________________________________________________
If you're not curious, your brain is already dying...if not dead.



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534246 17-Oct-2011 12:29 Send private message

I'm just using your "evidence"

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 534247 17-Oct-2011 12:30 Send private message

Linuxluver:

There are good reasons to be seeing this problem right here in NZ: 

1. The govt appears intent on selling off assets that earn 7.9% on capital EVERY YEAR to pay off debt they are paying less than 5% interest on. That's a losing proposition no matter how you look at it.  Quitting one's job to get one's holiday pay seems an apt comparison. Dumb. 

Why would they do that if they had NZ's best interests firmly in view? 

They wouldn't....so the answer becomes obvious: someone else's interests are being served. Not NZ's. 


But will not do so until they win a democratic election under MMP,
Surely if the 99% objected to this they would be voted out.............

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  Reply # 534252 17-Oct-2011 12:36 Send private message

Linuxluver:
Ragnor:
Linuxluver: 

1. The govt appears intent on selling off assets that earn 7.9% on capital EVERY YEAR to pay off debt they are paying less than 5% interest on. That's a losing proposition no matter how you look at it.  Quitting one's job to get one's holiday pay seems an apt comparison. Dumb. 



Where are those figures from?

Also interest rates don't seem likely to stay at 5%, the US and EU have been artificially repressing rates but it can't continue forever.


Have a read of "Ten Myths About Asset Sales" by Gordon Campbell.  He uses only official sources. 

The interest rate our government is likely paying is much lower than 5%. That rate is the one we get after everyone else has added their margins. 



Ok so I read that blog post, then I looked at the annual report for Meridian and a couple of the others. I'm no accountant but it looks like in 2010 that they returned a dividend significantly higher than the profit that year, basically a special dividend.  

Presumably they were directed to do this by the government to help with the recession. Seems to me that when you have a dividend higher than profit you are extracting value out of the company from eg: cash reserves.

I think claiming 7-8% dividend is pretty misleading, their sustainable real dividend is more like 3-4% or less.

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  Reply # 534258 17-Oct-2011 12:40 Send private message

dontpanic42: Is anyone attending any Occupy events around New Zealand, or planning to attend?

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

I've been watching the above livestream from the NYC Wall St event for the last couple of days (not constantly).
Some very inspiring stuff going on around the world.

The revolution is upon us.

We are the 99%.
We will not be ignored.

http://www.occupytogether.org/


As soon as I saw it was Minto and his commie rent a rabble I went completely off this thing in NZ. The NY people seem way more genuine at present but i suspect that they will get hijacked as well..




Regards,

Old3eyes

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534259 17-Oct-2011 12:46 Send private message

Minto? And any chance of credibility just went waaaay out the window


Just A Geek
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  Reply # 534279 17-Oct-2011 13:28 Send private message

I went to their live stream and asked what the protest was about.

I got kicked and couldn't talk back .. and then.. the below automated message..

mysticw0lf: We are here for one purpose ...to support the OWS and new occupations..
mysticw0lf: we do not discuss politics...political candidates...religion...or any other isms..
mysticw0lf: this is because those topics...bring division and conflict ...and we will not be distracted
mysticw0lf: if you want to talk about money...or the fed..or the wars...or taxes.. there are other places to do that ..
mysticw0lf: we have been using these rules for 30 days now... and the make this a safe productive space..
mysticw0lf: we do not bash anyone...
mysticw0lf: no racsim...sexism...or any other bigetry is allowed..
mysticw0lf: HATE, VIOLENCE and ILLEGAL ACTS or DRUGS talk...will get you a perma ban ..
mysticw0lf: we ask for mutual respect and focus :)
mysticw0lf: when we ban...it is not personal...it is just keeping things on track..
mysticw0lf: please only share related links...
mysticw0lf: no personal promotion is allowed...
mysticw0lf: there are fake donation sites...so be careful :)


So I ask anyone who is involved with the protests.. WHAT are you specifically protesting about? what law or whatever do you want changed?

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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 534289 17-Oct-2011 14:06 Send private message

Don't worry, be happy, there are so many things going wrong at the moment that no one could hope to encapsulate the in one statement/movement/leader.
This will resolve when people realise they do have clout and that governments will eventually listen, especially close to elections.
What revolutions have ever been legal? Or for that matter, reached their original goals?
The cohesive force at present is that a few precent of the people own most of the resources and most of the people, especially middle class, are headed economically down rapidly.
The interesting thing is the differing ways in which governments (for the people?) react.
Don't ignore the warning noises. Cheers in the meantime.

Just A Geek
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  Reply # 534295 17-Oct-2011 14:32 Send private message

feisha: Don't worry, be happy, there are so many things going wrong at the moment that no one could hope to encapsulate the in one statement/movement/leader.
This will resolve when people realise they do have clout and that governments will eventually listen, especially close to elections.
What revolutions have ever been legal? Or for that matter, reached their original goals?
The cohesive force at present is that a few precent of the people own most of the resources and most of the people, especially middle class, are headed economically down rapidly.
The interesting thing is the differing ways in which governments (for the people?) react.
Don't ignore the warning noises. Cheers in the meantime.


feisha: It didn't answer my question (AT ALL). Protests are usually against something.. i.e. the price of bread is too high and they want it reduced because of something. It seems the protests are just protests against everything and anything. If your protests "won" what would you want to happen so everyone is happy?

You say "governments will eventually listen" but listen about WHAT? What exactly do you want changed? the outcome of what?

"The cohesive force at present is that a few precent of the people own most of the resources and most of the people"

So what do you want changed about this? Most of the 1% (as I've heard people being called who have the money) have made their money from doing well in business and have started from nothing.. Do you want these people to just give up and give all their money to everyone else?

Why not say "We are protesting as the tax rates are too low for high earners and we want it increased"

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534312 17-Oct-2011 15:07 Send private message

Linuxluver: 
The interest rate our government is likely paying is much lower than 5%. That rate is the one we get after everyone else has added their margins. 

In the places the government is borroqwing money the interest rates are close to zero....which makes assets sales to pay debt even more bizarrely a bad idea.  

Let's leave aside for the moment that the government's tax cuts have hugely contributed to the debt.



Umm, nowhere in the world are interest rates near zero. Japan is probably the closest and the lowest there are around 2.5% for a mortgage. Admittedly mortgage rates are different to commercial or government lending rates but I doubt Japan is lending very much externally right now. 

Certainly OCR rates in many places are near zero, but these effect retail/commercial banking more so than institutional bank as they more so effect day to day banking costs than lending costs.

On NZ's front, you would need to take into account exchange rates which fluctuate wildly for us due to our small size and relatively one dimensional export market. These variations probably (and I'm guessing wildly here) account for something like 1-2% of your mortgage rate.

What is actually quite interesting is from looking at the Treasury financial statements is that SOE borrowing increased by approx. $3b last year for a total amount of borrowing to $20b. This is another reason why floating these assets on the sharemarket is a good idea as the borrowing goes off the governments books and is placed firmly on the SOE's own. 

I do agree that the tax cuts were probably a bad thing, but it is also good to remember, most of the "fat cats" that the 99% want to focus on weren't paying this rate anyway as incomes were being directed into trusts or simply kept in companies where they were already only paying 33%, so I don't believe they really did negatively impact the crowns accounts. What has really affected the accounts is that spending is down, so the GST take is down, and less people are employed, so income tax take is down. 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534319 17-Oct-2011 15:13 Send private message

feisha: 
This will resolve when people realise they do have clout and that governments will eventually listen, especially close to elections.


Umm, yeah, people do have clout. Its called democracy. We've had this system for a while now, by and large it's worked. Now, if you really believe that 99% of people are behind this, form a political party and they will vote for you.  

From the amount of people I have actually seen protesting it's the 1% who want change, not the 99%. 
  

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 534324 17-Oct-2011 15:25 Send private message

LennonNZ:
feisha: Don't worry, be happy, there are so many things going wrong at the moment that no one could hope to encapsulate the in one statement/movement/leader.
This will resolve when people realise they do have clout and that governments will eventually listen, especially close to elections.
What revolutions have ever been legal? Or for that matter, reached their original goals?
The cohesive force at present is that a few precent of the people own most of the resources and most of the people, especially middle class, are headed economically down rapidly.
The interesting thing is the differing ways in which governments (for the people?) react.
Don't ignore the warning noises. Cheers in the meantime.


feisha: It didn't answer my question (AT ALL). Protests are usually against something.. i.e. the price of bread is too high and they want it reduced because of something. It seems the protests are just protests against everything and anything. If your protests "won" what would you want to happen so everyone is happy?

You say "governments will eventually listen" but listen about WHAT? What exactly do you want changed? the outcome of what?

"The cohesive force at present is that a few precent of the people own most of the resources and most of the people"

So what do you want changed about this? Most of the 1% (as I've heard people being called who have the money) have made their money from doing well in business and have started from nothing.. Do you want these people to just give up and give all their money to everyone else?

Why not say "We are protesting as the tax rates are too low for high earners and we want it increased"


The protests appear to be aimed at the "1%" of the population that control the majority of the wealth.

There are some genuine concerns raised i.e. government (taxpayer) bailouts of private institutions, however, in this particular example, what were the other options? Had the bad debts been "covered" by another private institution, surely the wealth would still remain within the "1%".....?

I am more concerned that the protesters claim they represent the "99%", because, they do not represent me.

On another note, I see that there is a protest planned in Auckland today, in Aotea Square..? Will be interesting to see what happens when they all need to visit the little room...




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534351 17-Oct-2011 16:13 Send private message

MikeSkyrme: On another note, I see that there is a protest planned in Auckland today, in Aotea Square..? Will be interesting to see what happens when they all need to visit the little room...


Thought they were just camping up at Aotea for as long as it takes for them to get recognised? Saw them massing by Britomart on saturday and the ones i took notice of just seem like bored university students or hippies

As for the 99% vs 1% debate, we voted half of them into parliament in this democracy, you're not going to find a 4.4 million person government any time soon. Plus you have the referendum this November, no idea if that would change anything. Oh and the other half we can avoid by not buying their goods and services, dont like the corporate greed of say... Apple? Dont buy their stuff and encourage others not too, simple as that.

Most of these people are young? Theyre meant to be the entrepreneurs and not the protesters, leave that to Minto and his loony crew  

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  Reply # 534356 17-Oct-2011 16:28 Send private message

The effective campaigns are those which have a clear message:

* Stop the War
* Women should have the right to vote too
* Gay people should be allowed to marry
* Stop logging the forests

You don't even need a clear leader (though it usually helps to have someone step up)

* We feel exploited/hard done by but we're not exactly sure why or who to blame so we're going to hole ourselves up in financial district until something (not quite sure what) changes.

Doesn't quite have the same "oomph" behind it.

People staged occupations in the past because they knew what they wanted. This movement appears to be trying the reverse. They're going to occupy places and while they're hanging out they're going to try and figure out what it is they want.

I'm going to do my part by donating a lot of tinfoil. They'll really go through it making all those hats.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 534360 17-Oct-2011 16:35 Send private message

muppet: 

* We feel exploited/hard done by but we're not exactly sure why or who to blame so we're going to hole ourselves up in financial district until something (not quite sure what) changes.

Doesn't quite have the same "oomph" behind it.


There's an animal that displays very similar traits to what you describe. A Sheep. 

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