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1393 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 571261 20-Jan-2012 14:49 Send private message

Wow FBI.com got shut down in retaliation lol.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/6288082/NZ-residents-arrested-in-internet-piracy-bust

618 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 34

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  Reply # 571268 20-Jan-2012 14:56 Send private message

marmel: I can't believe that some people still think it is OK to steal software and think of it as a 'victimless crime', or hardly a crime at all.


It should not be any sort of crime at all, and it is not theft under any reasonable definition.

I do not think the law in this area reflects the will of the people. People have been sharing information and knowledge from the dawn of our species - in fact, you could argue it is the defining feature of our species.
That commercial interest comes in late and BUYS (yes, BUYS) some legislation to outlaw it is simply evidence of corruption, not of democracy.

I have never seen a single rigorous scientific paper demonstrating that (a) sharing is detrimental to society and (b) those who 'pirated' content would have definitely purchased it otherwise.

My views are obviously shared by the majority; I doubt there is a single person here who has not copied something they shouldn't have - even if it was only recording an episode of star trek.

If this guy set up a site which hosted copyrighted material for all and sundry to steal and in doing so made millions of dollars then why should he not be extradited to face charges?


He didn't do that.

I'm sure if some of those that are thinking along these lines had something they had created whether it was music, written material, software etc stolen and distributed for free across the web they may feel differently.


These new laws are not set up for them. They are the work of, and soley for the benefit of, large companies who wish to control your options in order to profit from the virtual monopolies thereby created.

And they do not want your competition. If they can bankrupt you with spurious law suits and complaints - they will. Legitimate or not.

These laws are not for you. They are not for me. The corporations are not your friends. The politicians do not represent our wishes.

50 million people a day voted with their feet against copyright law. And that is just one web site.

Theft is theft regardless of how it occurs. If you think stealing copyrighted software is not theft then you deserve what you get.


Theft is not theft unless the object of the theft is there after denied to the owner.

If I had a machine that 'photocopied' 3D objects, what would I loose by copying MY sandwich for you?




1085 posts

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  Reply # 571271 20-Jan-2012 15:01 Send private message

Brendan:

It should not be any sort of crime at all, and it is not theft under any reasonable definition.

I do not think the law in this area reflects the will of the people. People have been sharing information and knowledge from the dawn of our species - in fact, you could argue it is the defining feature of our species.
That commercial interest comes in late and BUYS (yes, BUYS) some legislation to outlaw it is simply evidence of corruption, not of democracy.

I have never seen a single rigorous scientific paper demonstrating that (a) sharing is detrimental to society and (b) those who 'pirated' content would have definitely purchased it otherwise.

My views are obviously shared by the majority; I doubt there is a single person here who has not copied something they shouldn't have - even if it was only recording an episode of star trek.


+1

1641 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 110


  Reply # 571272 20-Jan-2012 15:03 Send private message

marmel: If this guy set up a site which hosted copyrighted material for all and sundry to steal and in doing so made millions of dollars then why should he not be extradited to face charges?


If I have a website on servers in NZ, I expect to face a NZ court on NZ charges, not be renditioned on a plane to the US.

The big issue being raised in this case is not whether they are guilty, but where should they face trial....

As more and more things end up as "cloud" services- which are likely to be at least partially based in the US, does this mean that the power of US enforcement agencies to charge people in regard to any offence surrounding such services will also grow??, are you OK with people being sent off to another country??

If you robbed an ANZ bank in Auckland would you expect to face trial in Australia or here??

30 posts

Geek


  Reply # 571274 20-Jan-2012 15:06 Send private message

You know what? I think this is cool because apparently US can have a non-US citizen, who probably never visited US, arrested in a foreign country, for breaking some US laws.

Can Iran ask NZ police to arrest a NZ resident for drawing a picture of Muhammad just because it is a felony in Iran?

1328 posts

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  Reply # 571276 20-Jan-2012 15:09 Send private message

I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes theft.

It seems crazy to me that I could go online, download the latest version of Microsft Office for free and not expect to pay for it or for there to be any consequences for downloading it.

I also think that the internet is a global community. If you download material which is copyrighted by a US company and the US government decide to extradite you then so be it.

This guy isn't some sought of Robin Hood, he's living in a 30 million dollar mansion with bodyguards and sawn off shotguns.     

3142 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1036


  Reply # 571278 20-Jan-2012 15:14 Send private message

Brendan:
marmel: I can't believe that some people still think it is OK to steal software and think of it as a 'victimless crime', or hardly a crime at all.


It should not be any sort of crime at all, and it is not theft under any reasonable definition.

I do not think the law in this area reflects the will of the people. People have been sharing information and knowledge from the dawn of our species - in fact, you could argue it is the defining feature of our species.
That commercial interest comes in late and BUYS (yes, BUYS) some legislation to outlaw it is simply evidence of corruption, not of democracy.

I have never seen a single rigorous scientific paper demonstrating that (a) sharing is detrimental to society and (b) those who 'pirated' content would have definitely purchased it otherwise.

My views are obviously shared by the majority; I doubt there is a single person here who has not copied something they shouldn't have - even if it was only recording an episode of star trek.

If this guy set up a site which hosted copyrighted material for all and sundry to steal and in doing so made millions of dollars then why should he not be extradited to face charges?


He didn't do that.

I'm sure if some of those that are thinking along these lines had something they had created whether it was music, written material, software etc stolen and distributed for free across the web they may feel differently.


These new laws are not set up for them. They are the work of, and soley for the benefit of, large companies who wish to control your options in order to profit from the virtual monopolies thereby created.

And they do not want your competition. If they can bankrupt you with spurious law suits and complaints - they will. Legitimate or not.

These laws are not for you. They are not for me. The corporations are not your friends. The politicians do not represent our wishes.

50 million people a day voted with their feet against copyright law. And that is just one web site.

Theft is theft regardless of how it occurs. If you think stealing copyrighted software is not theft then you deserve what you get.


Theft is not theft unless the object of the theft is there after denied to the owner.

If I had a machine that 'photocopied' 3D objects, what would I loose by copying MY sandwich for you?





Sharing information is a big difference to taking someones creative work. So you are saying if you wrote an Application , spent many months coding it you are OK for people to just take it without paying you?

Those who file share illegally are just free loaders. If say MS Office was made available by Microsoft for download at say $20 people would still obtain it illegally for nothing.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

306 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 571280 20-Jan-2012 15:16 Send private message

** Disclaimer - I own a video shop****

Unless people can relate to an issue on a personal level, it can be difficult for them to grasp the repercussions / effects of their actions.

With d/loading and/or streaming movies and TV "illegally" using whatever service they choose (p2p, web streaming, private ftp servers etc etc) to then say that its Hollywood is an easy way to separate themselves from the victim.

"Partial truth" of the matter is that the victims are more often than not a lot closer to home, local businesses (video shops, game and music retailers etc) who all have their own responsibilities, financial or otherwise to meet who are missing out on the ability to sell/hire the product to "you" because you've already obtained it free of charge.

There is always the argument that "you" would never have purchased it anyway, but if it hadnt been obtained "illegally" then how else would you have watched/played it?

I say partial truth as there is obviously a lot of bloat involved in the figures quoted when it comes to estimating loss. There is also things like TV shows that are on free to air tv, which even to me, represent quite a grey area as to whether or not these should be considered an illegal d/load. A not insignificant portion of our t/over comes from people renting TV series, so I can sort of understand why they are included as illegal content, but if its already gone on TV, then the horse has already left the stable.

There was a time when I used to get really pissed off at people walking down the new release wall saying "ive got that on the hard drive", but then they rented something different and still spent $10 - $20 on movie hires, so was it "lost money" or not, not a yes/no answer in my opinion.

Facilitiating piracy for commercial gain, absolutely they should be prosecuted.

1328 posts

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  Reply # 571282 20-Jan-2012 15:22 Send private message

sen8or: ** Disclaimer - I own a video shop****

Unless people can relate to an issue on a personal level, it can be difficult for them to grasp the repercussions / effects of their actions.

With d/loading and/or streaming movies and TV "illegally" using whatever service they choose (p2p, web streaming, private ftp servers etc etc) to then say that its Hollywood is an easy way to separate themselves from the victim.

"Partial truth" of the matter is that the victims are more often than not a lot closer to home, local businesses (video shops, game and music retailers etc) who all have their own responsibilities, financial or otherwise to meet who are missing out on the ability to sell/hire the product to "you" because you've already obtained it free of charge.

There is always the argument that "you" would never have purchased it anyway, but if it hadnt been obtained "illegally" then how else would you have watched/played it?

I say partial truth as there is obviously a lot of bloat involved in the figures quoted when it comes to estimating loss. There is also things like TV shows that are on free to air tv, which even to me, represent quite a grey area as to whether or not these should be considered an illegal d/load. A not insignificant portion of our t/over comes from people renting TV series, so I can sort of understand why they are included as illegal content, but if its already gone on TV, then the horse has already left the stable.

There was a time when I used to get really pissed off at people walking down the new release wall saying "ive got that on the hard drive", but then they rented something different and still spent $10 - $20 on movie hires, so was it "lost money" or not, not a yes/no answer in my opinion.

Facilitiating piracy for commercial gain, absolutely they should be prosecuted.


You hit the nail on the head.

Also we have all seen the anti-priacy ads on videos.

How many us would go out and steal a video or item of software from a store? Probably not many but there is no difference between doing that and downloading it from a server for free.

     

306 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 571286 20-Jan-2012 15:25 Send private message



If I had a machine that 'photocopied' 3D objects, what would I loose by copying MY sandwich for you?



The bakery that bakes the bread would lose out on the sale of the bread because you chose to copy it, as would the dairy factory that would have otherwise had the opportunity to sell some butter if it weren't for you copying it.

Ofcourse, the photocopier company insist and spend millions of dollars on telling people that they can't control what people do with their photocopiers and therefore shouldn't bear any responsibility for their actions, even if an average household had enough photocopying capacity to service a latge commercial area?

But i digress.....


30 posts

Geek


  Reply # 571287 20-Jan-2012 15:26 Send private message

Yeah this guy may be a crook and MegaUpload probably should be shut down because it inflicts damages toward the content creators (although the amount of damage is debatable as a single mp3 shared would cause $80,000 worth of damage is just absurd).

But that's not the point.

The point is, should US law apply worldwide? We don't get to make US laws. We don't get to participate the US law making process (e.g we can't vote congressman and senators), but somehow when we break the law, we have to live with their definition of consequences?

gzt

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  Reply # 571288 20-Jan-2012 15:31 Send private message

tl54: Can Iran ask NZ police to arrest a NZ resident for drawing a picture of Muhammad just because it is a felony in Iran?

Yes, they can. Our extradition law is very general and actually provides for countries to ask that if they want to, but it is a 'they can ask but we don't have to agree' situation with countries with no extradition treaty.

http://mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/06-International-Courts-and-Tribunals/6-Extradition.php

There are also human rights considerations taken into account and if the offence was a 'political' offence. 

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  Reply # 571291 20-Jan-2012 15:33 Send private message

tl54: Yeah this guy may be a crook and MegaUpload probably should be shut down because it inflicts damages toward the content creators (although the amount of damage is debatable as a single mp3 shared would cause $80,000 worth of damage is just absurd).

But that's not the point.

The point is, should US law apply worldwide? We don't get to make US laws. We don't get to participate the US law making process (e.g we can't vote congressman and senators), but somehow when we break the law, we have to live with their definition of consequences?


I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.

1641 posts

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  Reply # 571295 20-Jan-2012 15:43 Send private message

marmel: I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.


So if the person was a "real born and bred kiwi" they should get protection from extradition, but if new migrants get accused of something by the US we should just roll over.......

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  Reply # 571296 20-Jan-2012 15:43 Send private message

I gave up renting movies when my old DVD player died and the new one forces me to watch propaganda on the discs before what I paid to see. IMO the legit product is not fit for purpose while that crap is on there, whereas with the download its just the movie etc.

If I could stream it for zero traffic costs, zero delays in getting it after the first release worldwide and a reasonable fee to get it and no BS DRM that prevents me playing it on all my hardware I would do.




Richard rich.ms

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