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30 posts

Geek


  Reply # 571297 20-Jan-2012 15:44 Send private message

marmel:
I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.


I agree.

But we have a functional legal system here. If you or I don't like this kind of things happen over here, we could support MPs who would pass tougher anti-piracy laws or tougher immigration laws etc.

I just don't feel comfortable about Americans come over here, have anyone they are pointing fingers at busted and ship away.

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  Reply # 571298 20-Jan-2012 15:45 Send private message

wellygary:
marmel: I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.


So if the person was a "real born and bred kiwi" they should get protection from extradition, but if new migrants get accused of something by the US we should just roll over.......


There is a big difference between residency and citizenship.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 571301 20-Jan-2012 16:00 Send private message

marmel:
tl54: Yeah this guy may be a crook and MegaUpload probably should be shut down because it inflicts damages toward the content creators (although the amount of damage is debatable as a single mp3 shared would cause $80,000 worth of damage is just absurd).

But that's not the point.

The point is, should US law apply worldwide? We don't get to make US laws. We don't get to participate the US law making process (e.g we can't vote congressman and senators), but somehow when we break the law, we have to live with their definition of consequences?


I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.


 

This is rubbish.  The question of whether it is legal or not is up for debate.  It is MU position that they had a vigorous responce approach for any complaints relating to copyright material much like Youtube does.  There are so many examples in the real world (ie. not digital) where everytime you would say, not the storage facilities fault.

Storage Lockers, stolen property is often put in these storage lockers, should the owner go to jail?  What about when he is made aware and removes the offending material?

Motel rooms used as P labs, should the motel owner go to jail because somebody used his services illegally!?

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  Reply # 571304 20-Jan-2012 16:03 Send private message

KiwiNZ:
wellygary:
So if the person was a "real born and bred kiwi" they should get protection from extradition, but if new migrants get accused of something by the US we should just roll over.......


There is a big difference between residency and citizenship.


In terms of how NZ treats you not so much, those with residency are pretty much the same as citizens, they can vote, get free health care, benefits etc,

About the only things you need citizenship for is serving overseas in the defence force, and working for a few government departments, life MFAT, SIS etc

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  Reply # 571305 20-Jan-2012 16:04 Send private message

John Key will bend over backwards to make sure these guys extradited and keep Obama happy. You could probably bet on it.

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  Reply # 571306 20-Jan-2012 16:06 Send private message

 There is a big difference between residency and citizenship.


Not really. I used to be a Citizenship Officer. The only real difference is the right to an NZ passport.

Residents almost never get deported, no matter what they do, there are no social services they are excluded from and of course they have the right to work. The reason for this that residency comes with the most important right in a democracy, the right to vote. Once you get that you get everything else. 

Of course there should be extradition procedures if you murder someone in another country and flee here there should be a way to send you back there. 

As for this as a crime? Well, someone a while back that you can't relate to something you don't have personal experience of. If you had someone close to you shot you may hate gun makers.

The point of justice under law is to get away from personal experience and how 'you' feel. Just because you are disadvantaged by a law does not make it unjust. 

They copyright system is broken. 




Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

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  Reply # 571308 20-Jan-2012 16:07 Send private message

codyc1515: John Key will bend over backwards to make sure these guys extradited and keep Obama happy. You could probably bet on it.


He will not be involved, it's a judicial process.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 571309 20-Jan-2012 16:09 Send private message

KiwiNZ:
codyc1515: John Key will bend over backwards to make sure these guys extradited and keep Obama happy. You could probably bet on it.


He will not be involved, it's a judicial process.

We've seen him before make comments on the side that strongly suggest that he would like certain people locked up.

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Trusted

  Reply # 571310 20-Jan-2012 16:09 Send private message

marmel: I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes theft.

It seems crazy to me that I could go online, download the latest version of Microsft Office for free and not expect to pay for it or for there to be any consequences for downloading it.


The concept of copyright and IP law in general is outmoded and misguided in the internet age. Copyright was an anomaly in human history and it's time is passing swiftly. Thankfully.

I think that we can replace these monolithic corporations with open source, which will only get stronger, and related ideas.
We do not need our culture and medicine tied up in proprietry hands where the price of admission will only go higher each year.

It is perverse in the extreme that we gift so much of our culture and lives into the hands of Industry and Government when they are both so VERY clearly incompetent.

I also think that the internet is a global community. If you download material which is copyrighted by a US company and the US government decide to extradite you then so be it.


And when your web site or software (which you spent 3 months polishing) is found to breach a patent involving the display of information on a screen (or equally broad patent) held by some troll and YOU are extradited?

The system is broken. It's not for you.

This guy isn't some sought of Robin Hood, he's living in a 30 million dollar mansion with bodyguards and sawn off shotguns.     


Not the point!

The points are simple:

1. Copyright and IP law are fatally broken and destructive.

2. The Yanks should not be allowed to enforce THEIR laws in OUR jurisdiction. They were not voted in, and they can F-off.


11 posts

Geek


  Reply # 571312 20-Jan-2012 16:10 Send private message

marmel:
tl54: Yeah this guy may be a crook and MegaUpload probably should be shut down because it inflicts damages toward the content creators (although the amount of damage is debatable as a single mp3 shared would cause $80,000 worth of damage is just absurd).

But that's not the point.

The point is, should US law apply worldwide? We don't get to make US laws. We don't get to participate the US law making process (e.g we can't vote congressman and senators), but somehow when we break the law, we have to live with their definition of consequences?


I guess the problem is though that of someone has made millions of dollars from illegal means and then becomes a new Zealand resident mainly due to their bulging bank account should they be able to hide behind their kiwi residency.

I don't think that is right.


This is the same situation as I stated above. Megaupload provides a platform to store contents online and earn money by providing such service. I do not think this is illegal business in this case.

Unless someone can prove the owner intended to keep copyrighted materials on their server. It's the users' responsibility not to upload copyrighted contents.

If Megaupload's owner is proved to be guilty. I would say all the owners of weapon manufacturers need to be arrested immediately. As the service and goods they provide do only one thing, that is killing, which is illegal across the whole world.

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  Reply # 571313 20-Jan-2012 16:10 Send private message

Brendan: The Yanks should not be allowed to enforce THEIR laws in OUR jurisdiction. They were not voted in, and they can F-off.

United States of the World?

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  Reply # 571316 20-Jan-2012 16:14 Send private message

What is the difference between a New Zealand resident and a New Zealand citizen?A New Zealand resident is legally and permanently allowed to live in New Zealand although they do not have all of the rights and privileges of a New Zealand citizen. These include being able to hold a New Zealand passport, receive some educational scholarships, or represent New Zealand in some international sports. Owning rural land is also difficult for those people who are not New Zealand citizens.
People who have been resident in New Zealand for five years, and meet conditions set by the Department of Internal Affairs, are able to apply for New Zealand citizenship




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 571317 20-Jan-2012 16:16 Send private message

Brendan:
marmel: I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes theft.

It seems crazy to me that I could go online, download the latest version of Microsft Office for free and not expect to pay for it or for there to be any consequences for downloading it.


The concept of copyright and IP law in general is outmoded and misguided in the internet age. Copyright was an anomaly in human history and it's time is passing swiftly. Thankfully.

I think that we can replace these monolithic corporations with open source, which will only get stronger, and related ideas.
We do not need our culture and medicine tied up in proprietry hands where the price of admission will only go higher each year.

It is perverse in the extreme that we gift so much of our culture and lives into the hands of Industry and Government when they are both so VERY clearly incompetent.

I also think that the internet is a global community. If you download material which is copyrighted by a US company and the US government decide to extradite you then so be it.


And when your web site or software (which you spent 3 months polishing) is found to breach a patent involving the display of information on a screen (or equally broad patent) held by some troll and YOU are extradited?

The system is broken. It's not for you.

This guy isn't some sought of Robin Hood, he's living in a 30 million dollar mansion with bodyguards and sawn off shotguns.     


Not the point!

The points are simple:

1. Copyright and IP law are fatally broken and destructive.

2. The Yanks should not be allowed to enforce THEIR laws in OUR jurisdiction. They were not voted in, and they can F-off.



So if a New Zealand criminal moves to say Australia or the US they are free.?




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

1599 posts

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Inactive user


  Reply # 571318 20-Jan-2012 16:17 Send private message

KiwiNZ:
Brendan:
marmel: I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes theft.

It seems crazy to me that I could go online, download the latest version of Microsft Office for free and not expect to pay for it or for there to be any consequences for downloading it.


The concept of copyright and IP law in general is outmoded and misguided in the internet age. Copyright was an anomaly in human history and it's time is passing swiftly. Thankfully.

I think that we can replace these monolithic corporations with open source, which will only get stronger, and related ideas.
We do not need our culture and medicine tied up in proprietry hands where the price of admission will only go higher each year.

It is perverse in the extreme that we gift so much of our culture and lives into the hands of Industry and Government when they are both so VERY clearly incompetent.

I also think that the internet is a global community. If you download material which is copyrighted by a US company and the US government decide to extradite you then so be it.


And when your web site or software (which you spent 3 months polishing) is found to breach a patent involving the display of information on a screen (or equally broad patent) held by some troll and YOU are extradited?

The system is broken. It's not for you.

This guy isn't some sought of Robin Hood, he's living in a 30 million dollar mansion with bodyguards and sawn off shotguns.     


Not the point!

The points are simple:

1. Copyright and IP law are fatally broken and destructive.

2. The Yanks should not be allowed to enforce THEIR laws in OUR jurisdiction. They were not voted in, and they can F-off.



So if a New Zealand criminal moves to say Australia or the US they are free.?

You could be extradited to the US for copying the other guys post without his permission if he was a resident there (my understanding). How would you feel about that? 

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  Reply # 571320 20-Jan-2012 16:19 Send private message

codyc1515:
KiwiNZ:
Brendan:
marmel: I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes theft.

It seems crazy to me that I could go online, download the latest version of Microsft Office for free and not expect to pay for it or for there to be any consequences for downloading it.


The concept of copyright and IP law in general is outmoded and misguided in the internet age. Copyright was an anomaly in human history and it's time is passing swiftly. Thankfully.

I think that we can replace these monolithic corporations with open source, which will only get stronger, and related ideas.
We do not need our culture and medicine tied up in proprietry hands where the price of admission will only go higher each year.

It is perverse in the extreme that we gift so much of our culture and lives into the hands of Industry and Government when they are both so VERY clearly incompetent.

I also think that the internet is a global community. If you download material which is copyrighted by a US company and the US government decide to extradite you then so be it.


And when your web site or software (which you spent 3 months polishing) is found to breach a patent involving the display of information on a screen (or equally broad patent) held by some troll and YOU are extradited?

The system is broken. It's not for you.

This guy isn't some sought of Robin Hood, he's living in a 30 million dollar mansion with bodyguards and sawn off shotguns.     


Not the point!

The points are simple:

1. Copyright and IP law are fatally broken and destructive.

2. The Yanks should not be allowed to enforce THEIR laws in OUR jurisdiction. They were not voted in, and they can F-off.



So if a New Zealand criminal moves to say Australia or the US they are free.?

You could be extradited to the US for copying the other guys post without his permission if he was a resident there (my understanding). How would you feel about that? 


reductio ad absurdum




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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