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  Reply # 640898 14-Jun-2012 18:28 Send private message

mercutio:
NonprayingMantis:
SamF: The point here is that this graph is a rating against Advertised speeds.  ADSL connections are always advertised as 'Maximum' ie; the maximum your line can connect at, Telstra advertise their cable service at 15mbits, but for technical reasons, are able to supply faster rates than these.  Sure, you could argue (as you are) that Telstra cable connections should be measured at their actual maximum capable speeds, but that would actually unfairly disadvantage them in this graph.  At the end of the day, they are supplying faster local speeds than they advertise, and that's a good thing!!


whihc is exaclty what makes the comparison entirely silly. Just consider whether iot would be possible for a DSL line to EVER get above 100% on this test even if they were getting speeds of 50Mbps. (It isn't, since then their 100% would be at 50Mbps)  therefore the comparison is silly

since the methodology for ADSL is to show comparisons with maximum achieved speed, then the SAME methodology should be used for Cable. That is all people are asking for - a genuine comparison, not a comparison using different methods that gives Cable an unfair advantage.

Maybe to get this to change we need an ISP to launch a product advertised with 2Mbps, but still give the maximum ADSL2+ speeds, then the graph will just start to look silly as that plan will show 1000% over advertised speed!


well hangon don't adsl circuits have a cir of 48kbit?


No. EUBA has no artificial per user dimensioning, and hasn't done since it launched.

Old BUBA circuits may still have per user dimensioning which is purely a legecy thing.


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  Reply # 640899 14-Jun-2012 18:28 Send private message

Talkiet:
mercutio: [snip]

well hangon don't adsl circuits have a cir of 48kbit?


No

Cheers -N



i suppose it's not a cir, but a dimensioning number.  And it looks like it's 45 not 48.  If comparing to that though, DSL goes fast :)

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  Reply # 640913 14-Jun-2012 18:37 Send private message

mercutio:
Talkiet:
mercutio: [snip]

well hangon don't adsl circuits have a cir of 48kbit?


No

Cheers -N



i suppose it's not a cir, but a dimensioning number.  And it looks like it's 45 not 48.  If comparing to that though, DSL goes fast :)


As I mention above here is no, none, zipppo, nilch articucial dimensioning of EUBA. You have to remember this is a Commerce Commission figure that is set by then in their specifications for a regulated service. If providers (Chorus in this case) choose to not impliment this then we all win.

Introduction of dimensioning on EUBA had been planned since it's launch. I suspect we'll probably never see it despite continualtalk that it is coming.


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  Reply # 640921 14-Jun-2012 18:42 Send private message

sbiddle:
mercutio:
Talkiet:
mercutio: [snip]

well hangon don't adsl circuits have a cir of 48kbit?


No

Cheers -N



i suppose it's not a cir, but a dimensioning number.  And it looks like it's 45 not 48.  If comparing to that though, DSL goes fast :)


As I mention above here is no, none, zipppo, nilch articucial dimensioning of EUBA. You have to remember this is a Commerce Commission figure that is set by then in their specifications for a regulated service. If providers (Chorus in this case) choose to not impliment this then we all win.

Introduction of dimensioning on EUBA had been planned since it's launch. I suspect we'll probably never see it despite continualtalk that it is coming.



Sorry if it came out the wrong way.  It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.  I didn't really expect that ADSL speeds should be compared to 45kbit.  And yes EUBA is enabled on the majority of exchanges, alleviating congestion to many users, and doesn't currently have enforced dimensioning per user.

At the same time, on a more serious note, Maxnet's poor standing is most likely due to them having a lot of users on BUBA, which they said publically somewhere is having issues for not just them, but other network users.  And that they were shifting heavier users to EUBA, while leaving lighter users on BUBA, so that those that can't be migrated to EUBA can experience good speeds too.  Which is pretty much the dilema of BUBA - if you move every BUBA user who can be migrated to EUBA, and have the same data caps for BUBA and EUBA users then the BUBA users are going to experience congestion. 

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  Reply # 640960 14-Jun-2012 19:43 Send private message

ArcticSilver:The only way to realistically fix this problem would be to have Truenet modems which record the line statistics, which may not be economical/practical.


They are effectively doing this as they are measuring the fastest ever reading and calling that 'line speed', which is a fairly effective measure and is applied consistently across all ADSL users.

NonprayingMantis: whihc is exaclty what makes the comparison entirely silly. Just consider whether iot would be possible for a DSL line to EVER get above 100% on this test even if they were getting speeds of 50Mbps. (It isn't, since then their 100% would be at 50Mbps)  therefore the comparison is silly

since the methodology for ADSL is to show comparisons with maximum achieved speed, then the SAME methodology should be used for Cable. That is all people are asking for - a genuine comparison, not a comparison using different methods that gives Cable an unfair advantage.


Yes, I understand what you're getting at now and you're right.  If they use the 'maximum speed = true line speed' measure for DSL, they should do the same for cable users.  In other countries where they have rate limited DSL plans, measuring against 'advertised' speeds gives some meaningful comparisons, but in NZ, where 'advertised' speed could be anything from 0.5mbit to 50mbit, it becomes irrelevant.

The key here is, as you say, consistency of measurement methodology across ALL connection types; you can't compare different connections with different methodologies and then compare them on the same graph.

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  Reply # 640964 14-Jun-2012 19:48 Send private message

The only way to establish a true base is for Truenet to have actual modem sync stats, Chorus Netmap estimated sync stats, and actual modem speed tests. This has been dicsussed numerous times recently on variosu threads on here, and would deliver some fantastic data.


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  Reply # 640967 14-Jun-2012 19:53 Send private message

I think the method used is valid as they are comparing them to advertised speeds, or what the end user is expecting. As such on ADSL you expect to get as fast as your line will give. As on cable you expect to get the 15Mbps (or what you have signed up for). So Telstra customers are getting better then what they expect which should be reflected on the graph.

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  Reply # 640975 14-Jun-2012 20:10 Send private message

LennonNZ: The problem I see if you are mixing Absolute Average Test with Relative Average tests on the same graph.

Telstra Clear is Absolute average speed (with 100% being 15M)
Everyone else you are Getting the Maximum Speed any test did and then thats 100%

Mixiing these on the same graph doesn't make sense at all IMHO.

The question is Why don't you treat TelstraClear the same as everyone else in the way you represent them (i.e. see the maximum speed someone got and then have that as 100%)


I agree.

You and Neil both highlighted to me that the data presented is meaningless.

So many questions have been presented that I doubt the value of the information.  If these holes can be seen at a quick glance then what other issues are there that I'm just over looking because my eye is being diverted by these basic issues?

Neil - nice graph, nice link.

We already know that TCL has a burst allowance on their HFC network, so it's never going to drop below the 120% mark.

All I'm reading is that ISPs need to come out and declare DSL is a 10/1 service and then they'll rate much better against TCL.  Ya, it's just silly and meaningless.

What is interesting is that TCL doesn't seem to be fearing nearly as badly as some forum posters would have us believe.  TGA is meant to be congested. 

We all know that TCL has issues with the proxy farm still.... or should I say "We all know that some GZ users are claiming the proxy farm has issues..."? 

John's presentation doesn't reflect this story at all. 

Without international data, this information all seems fairly meaningless and pointless in any value to consumers.

Having said that, it would seem that information such as GZ and TN is fairly pointless for the average consumer anyway.  Users are still being sucked in with ease by slick marketing and then run to FairGo when they discover the old age saying "if it's to good to be true..." turns out to be true for them.






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  Reply # 640976 14-Jun-2012 20:15 Send private message

samsam: I think the method used is valid as they are comparing them to advertised speeds, or what the end user is expecting. As such on ADSL you expect to get as fast as your line will give. As on cable you expect to get the 15Mbps (or what you have signed up for). So Telstra customers are getting better then what they expect which should be reflected on the graph.


But can't you understand one that the Telstra Cable is an absolute value (actual speed) and the rest are relative results (percentage of maximum obtainable speed)

Whats bigger  - 80% of a Large glass of Water or a Glass of 300ml of Water??

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  Reply # 640981 14-Jun-2012 20:35 Send private message

LennonNZ: Glass of 300ml of Water??


But is that a 300ml glass or a 500ml glass with a 300ml glass label on it when every I request if from you Mr LennonNZ-BarManMate?






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  Reply # 640984 14-Jun-2012 20:38 Send private message

Wow, we geeks are a negative bunch aren't we? I for one think there is a lot of value in the data.

(No I'm not going to write a wall of text explaining why... but I do think there are improvements that could be made and more data would by useful. That is all :P )

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  Reply # 640985 14-Jun-2012 20:40 Send private message

DonGould:
LennonNZ: Glass of 300ml of Water??


But is that a 300ml glass or a 500ml glass with a 300ml glass label on it when every I request if from you Mr LennonNZ-BarManMate?




It's actually a 300ml glass with 500ml of liquid in it :D

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  Reply # 640987 14-Jun-2012 20:42 Send private message

Whats bigger  - 80% of a Large glass of Water or a Glass of 300ml of Water??


80% of the large glass of water assuming it is larger then 375 mL.

If i had the choice i would be much happier getting what I signed up for. If i wanted a large glass of water and only got 80% i would be unhappy. But if i got the 300 ml and then was offered a top-up I wouldn't complain.

I would think this is the general case with a service, if you get less then what is advertised or expected is considered bad, while getting better service is never a bad thing.

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  Reply # 640996 14-Jun-2012 21:08 Send private message

samsam:
Whats bigger  - 80% of a Large glass of Water or a Glass of 300ml of Water??


80% of the large glass of water assuming it is larger then 375 mL.

If i had the choice i would be much happier getting what I signed up for. If i wanted a large glass of water and only got 80% i would be unhappy. But if i got the 300 ml and then was offered a top-up I wouldn't complain.

I would think this is the general case with a service, if you get less then what is advertised or expected is considered bad, while getting better service is never a bad thing.



its' more going to a bar, getting a beer and they don't fill the glass up, people keep complaining that during the evening the beer isn't full, but if you go in at lunch time they full it right up.

people complain!  they say, i want to drink beer in the evening not lunch time.  what do you think i am, an alcoholic?  i work during the daytime, i go out at night, get a beer and then it's not full!  i don't care if it's full during lunch, that's not when i drink!

then the beer is filled to the top, but it's just froth at the top!  if you drink it quickly it doesn't go over the side of the glass, and people say "it's still good enough, there's just froth on the top!"  do you call this beer?  they wait for it to settle a little - and sure enough it's just as big as it was before.

this is /burst/ capacity.  it only counts for a short period of time, giving artificially increased speeds.    and still during the evening there are peak times.  sure it's when people want to use the net.   but their promotions of "cheap internet" have seemed to fuel more problems.

kind of like if you have a regular bar, and someone says that there are free strippers on, and then you get a whole lot of people wanting to come in.  it was a nice friendly bar, but now you just have a whole lot of randoms, making it hard to get around, and not adding anything to the experience!



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  Reply # 640997 14-Jun-2012 21:08 Send private message

 
80% of the large glass of water assuming it is larger then 375 mL.


But I didn't tell you the size of the Large Glass did I? 





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