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390 posts

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Topic # 16607 18-Oct-2007 16:10 Send private message

Hi guys, need your help and/or suggestion here.

I am living in a (kind of) new suburb around Henderson for almost three years now.  Bad news is that my house is quite far away from the exchange, judging by the attenuation I got with my downstream line (55.5 db).  Even I am on the full speed download plan with a 15GB cap, I can only get a line speed (the speed I got between my house and the exchange) of 2000kbps.

Well, it is not high, but not too bad either.

However, a few weeks ago, I noticed that I have been moved from the ATM circuit to a "Gigabit Ethernet" circuit.  I did a speedtest via speedtest.net at that of time and I got 2000kbps/sec.  Not bad, I think.

But, a couple of weeks ago, I noticed my line speed dropped (actually halved) to around 1000kbps for no reason.  I checked my router and all the stats link SNR margin, attenuation are the same, but my line speed is now halved.

I called Orcon and they get back to me saying that Telecom installed ADSL2+ in the exchange (good news for those folks live around it), hence me being switched to the Gigabit Ethernet circuit.  Orcon say the speed reduction I am experiencing is due to

a) more people in my exchange area signed up for broadband and since I am "at the very end of the line" so my speed is halved
b) ADSL2+ works even worse compare with ADSL1 when attenuation is high (like my case), so when they put ADSL2+ equipment in, I got a problem!

Can anyone tell me is this true?

Assume that if this is true, what if I switch to ADSL2+ when it is available?  Will my line speed go up, or go even lower (given the attenuation I got).

Another question is, for people like me whom live far away from the exchange, does it mean that we will be ignored even if new broadband technology rolls in (e.g. VDSL, ADSL2+, etc).  Does it mean I will get 1Mbps max for the future?

It will be good if Telstra is around and lay some cables in my area.

Note: I am not working for Telstra.

Please... help... what should I do?

Cheers!

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  Reply # 91551 18-Oct-2007 17:10 Send private message

It is quite possible your speed has dropped due to being switched over to the new ISAM equipment. Telecom have moved away from the good solid Nokia gear, to another cheaper brand. One of the issues with the new ISAM's and people who are further away from the exchange, is that they work on a lower power profile than the older DSLAMs / ASAMs. That means, the further away you are, the bigger drop off in speed. I had a customer who used to get 1.5-2Mbps, then after the switching to an ISAM, he now sits around 1Mbps - but his overall connection is now more reliable.

A few things you can try: a full install if you don't have one already. Different routers have variations in the speeds they will connect at. Also, wait until you have been switched onto ADSL2, and see if this helps. There may also be an option of ADSL2 extended reach at some stage too.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
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Master Geek


  Reply # 91554 18-Oct-2007 17:52 Send private message

Welcome to Geekzone AKLWestie Smile

AKLWestie: However, a few weeks ago, I noticed that I have been moved from the ATM circuit to a "Gigabit Ethernet" circuit. I did a speedtest via speedtest.net at that of time and I got 2000kbps/sec. Not bad, I think.


How did you find out abut this?



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  Reply # 91559 18-Oct-2007 18:15 Send private message

Well, if you are an Orcon customer, you can logon to "My Account" via orcon.co.nz.  Then, click on your BitStream plan and click show connections, then you can find it out.

Cheers!



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  Reply # 91560 18-Oct-2007 18:23 Send private message

coffeebaron:

A few things you can try: a full install if you don't have one already.


Hi coffeebaron,

Thanks for your help.

A small question: does a full (spliter) installation make a big difference.  I am using four phone points at home and they are all filtered.

Thanks!

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Master Geek


  Reply # 91563 18-Oct-2007 18:42 Send private message

coffeebaron: It is quite possible your speed has dropped due to being switched over to the new ISAM equipment. Telecom have moved away from the good solid Nokia gear, to another cheaper brand......


hehehehe.....you ever tried buying one? I'm sure Alcatel would say its still good quality!;-) Makes you realise just how good the Nokia gear was though - and the old 1122 routers.

The switch from ATM to Gig ethernet shouldn't make any difference in terms of performance - it should mean that there is more bandwidth going into the exchange (not to mention the change will have meant switching from the old newbridge ATM kit to something like (hopefullly) a riverstone switch or omnicore. This is all good kit - and not cheap!

The explanation from Orcon sounds very plausible.  General rule of thumb with network transport technology is that the faster it goes, the shorter the distance (and the more fragile and sensitive to interference/ problems it becomes).  The old LSDDS network which provided frighteningly fast circuits at 2k4 and 4k8 went for miles!  This is one of the reasons it was used for ATMs (cash machines) and eftpos.  There was literally no where in NZ where you couldn't get it.  ADSL1 as we all know goes well up to what....6-7kms from the exchange and then putters out dramatically after that.  More so with ADSL2 which is good for something like 2.4 kms and then drops like a brick.  VDSL if I remember rightly is good for all of.....300 meters?  Sorry - not too exact with the figures as its a been a couple of years since I worked with this.

Also - despite the possible increase of bandwidth to the exchange - if most subscribes close to the exchange are now getting 3x the bandwidth they were getting before than regardless of the overall increase - its going to be used up pretty quickly. You'll recall prior to the intro of ADSL2 the papers were full of articles about how everyone else in the world could get 24meg DSL connections, and we were missing out, which meant the end of the world as we know it, and the legislators must act now, etc (I recall one article in the dompost I think talking to some random guy in aussie who lived next to an exchange saying NZ was missing out, blah blah blah). I don't recall any of the articles talking about the distance limitation of the technology.  So from a technical point of view - no, you're not being ignored - the technology has its limits.

as per coffeebaron - may just have to wait and see whether a change to ADSL2 will help. Don't know if there is any kit to extend the reach and amplify DSL2. And in any case - extra kit on the line would make it a more expensive service.



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  Reply # 91583 18-Oct-2007 20:07 Send private message

AKLWestie: A small question: does a full (spliter) installation make a big difference.  I am using four phone points at home and they are all filtered.

If all those 4 points have a phone plugged in, then yes a full install will make a difference. What I've tended to find though, is the difference in speed going to a full install is variable from not much to quite good; but it tends to make your connection more stable.
E.G. I was using a Dynalink router, which tended to connect around 2Mbps (I'm 5.5 Km from exchange & line attenuation 54db), but with a Zyxel router I could connect closer to 3Mbps. Trouble with the higher connecting Zyxel, lots of disconnects compared to the solid stable Dynalink. After upgrading my wiring to a full splitter, my Zyxel still connects around 3Mbps, but much much more stable.
I'd also suggest you get your line tested for any faults, also do an isolation test: i.e. unplug all phones & filters, plug in only your router, power reset and see if that makes a difference to your connection speed. If so, then troubleshoot from there.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com



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Reply # 91612 18-Oct-2007 21:59 Send private message

Thanks for your advise coffeebaron.

Well, I have done an isolation test.  I unplugged all phones, sky TV box ...etc so my router was the only equipment connected to the phone line.  I still get the same result.

I borrowed a D-link DSL-G604T and did an isolation test, basically the same.

I think I will take your advise and wait until my exchange is fully ADSL2+ ready.  But given the long distance between my house and the exchange, do you think I will benefit from ADSL2+?

Also, you mentioned that one of your customer has the same problem (that sounds almost exactly as the situation I am in), how did he solve the problem.

Also, my router is more than three years old, looks like I need to fork out another couple of hundred to get a new one just for ADSL2+.  Frown

Anyway, you also mentioned about boosting the range of ADSL2+, how can this be done?

Cheers!

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Master Geek


  Reply # 91625 19-Oct-2007 00:07 Send private message

AKLWestie:
Anyway, you also mentioned about boosting the range of ADSL2+, how can this be done?


KiwiOverseas:
as per coffeebaron - may just have to wait and see whether a change to ADSL2 will help. Don't know if there is any kit to extend the reach and amplify DSL2. And in any case - extra kit on the line would make it a more expensive service.


ok...lets frame it another way.  There are two ways to extend DSL reach - cabinet based DSLAMs, and signal amplification. The former has been the method of choice for Telecom for the past few years.  The result has been much better coverage - but overall line speeds have gone down. Signal amplification was used prior to the intro of DSL based services as the main means of extending standard digital data based services. The decision to extend individual services was done on a case by case basis, with the increased cost of equipment subsequently built into the service charge.  So not sure if signal amp kit is available for DSL2, and if it is then your line cost would likely increase.  In either case - its something for Orcon to take up with Telecom.

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  Reply # 91649 19-Oct-2007 09:24 Send private message

Telecom has recently installed 3 roadside DSLAMs all within a 1 km radius of my house unfortunately I'm not on that exchange and mine is about 4-5 kms away. (Bummer)  Am I correct in assuming that because of the roadside equipment those customers will always be stuck with using Telecom and will not get the benefits of 'unbundling' and the other ISP's having access to the exchanges to put in their own equipment?

PS Even though the cable from that exchange runs under the verge in front of my house Telecom won't switch me across to it!! (Double Bummer)

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  Reply # 91699 19-Oct-2007 13:50 Send private message

Also, you mentioned that one of your customer has the same problem (that sounds almost exactly as the situation I am in), how did he solve the problem.
Anyway, you also mentioned about boosting the range of ADSL2+, how can this be done?
Cheers!

Couldn't solve friends problem (well actually did, because he now has a good stable connection, just not as fast). It is just the way it is, lower power, less reach. Will let you know what happens we he is filcked onto ADSL2 - which should be soon.

As for ADSL2, extended reach. I don't know too much about it, but I think it maybe a different card that they stick in at the exchange. Rather than using the ADSL2 technology to ramp up the speed, the use it to make it go further. I think by using different frequency range or something. The result, it's more like ADSL1, but rather than 6-7km, its 7km+ or something.





Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com

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Master Geek


  Reply # 91810 20-Oct-2007 22:26 Send private message

slotherby: Telecom has recently installed 3 roadside DSLAMs all within a 1 km radius of my house unfortunately I'm not on that exchange and mine is about 4-5 kms away. (Bummer) Am I correct in assuming that because of the roadside equipment those customers will always be stuck with using Telecom and will not get the benefits of 'unbundling' and the other ISP's having access to the exchanges to put in their own equipment?


Not necessarily.  It will depend on whether or not the ISP installing equipment in the exchange wants to increase reach further by installing in the roadside cabinet as well.  There are three problems 1) space in the cabinets is limited, 2) you need power, 3) the mini DSLAMs (like a conklin) can only take a 2 meg circuit and support 8 users similutaneously.  Hence the maximum throughput is 2048 divided by 8, or 256k each (actually it will be less as this doesn't allow for signalling on the circuit). In short - if consumers are within reach of the exchange then the need for a roadside cabinet install becomes redundant - and consumers can be connected directly. It will be up to individual ISPs as to whether or not they want to install in cabinets, or only supply high speed services to those directly within reach of the exchange.

The idea of using a cabinet based DSLAM - is to increase reach and coverage. In the past Telecom has boosted/ amplified signal strength as a means of getting greater distance (which was done on other services like DDS, Frame Relay, etc). Whether or not there is actually kit to do this for DSL is unknown - let alone what the commericials surrounding this sort of process. I sort of doubt it as DSL signalling is already fragile enough as it is (and suspectible to all sorts of interference) without adding amp equipment onto the line. But you can speculate one of the reason Telecom is keen on fibre to the node (FTTN) - i.e fibre to the cabinets - is that this is probably the only way/ best way to deliver greater than 2meg services to the cabinets.

Sorry to hear that you can't connect to the nearby road DSLAMs. I'm presuming the wiring from your house simply goes in the opposite direction. If the nearest DSLAM to you is a kilometer away - thats 1000 meters of copper laid underground (?) to connect to it. Not a cheap job.

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  Reply # 91895 22-Oct-2007 07:55 Send private message

It wouldn't bug me so much if the cabling did go the the other way. The problem is that the copper from the roadeside boxes goes along the grass verge in front of my house and even under my driveway to support a neighbour who is further away than I am. (A Downer tech showed me the street diagrams.) The roadside boxes have a fibre connection back to the exchange.

Telecom wont even give me a price to have the work done at my expense - their only reply is "we don't do that".  Oh for competition!

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  Reply # 91896 22-Oct-2007 08:24 Send private message

Somewhat, I don't think another ISP would pay for a relatively expensive tech to change your wiring, unless you logged it as a fault and it was identified as a fault to do with the cabling.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 91960 22-Oct-2007 21:52 Send private message

slotherby: It wouldn't bug me so much if the cabling did go the the other way. The problem is that the copper from the roadeside boxes goes along the grass verge in front of my house and even under my driveway to support a neighbour who is further away than I am. (A Downer tech showed me the street diagrams.) The roadside boxes have a fibre connection back to the exchange.


The cabinets have fibre! oh...that's just cruel

Ok - here's my suggestion.  I've done a fair bit of work with Downers/ transfield/ etc - in the past.  Any kind of network build (for whatever reason) is approved by Telecom, but managed by the contracting company.  So Downers will have a "regional planner" who is responsible for your area - whose job it is plan the various install jobs and ensure there are contractors, etc - to carry out the work. What you are asking to do in effect - is relocate/ install a new demarc point - which you are perfectly entitled to do. When ever someone builds a new house, office building, etc - a new demarc point has to be installed - and that is the responsibility of the property owner. Also, sometimes an occassion will arise when the demarc for an existing property needs to be moved.  That's purely between the owner and contracting company.  Telecom is responsible for getting the network to your area/ street - but how it connects to your property is up to you. So you can contact Downers as a private property owner, ask to talk to their planner, and request a quote to relocate your demarc point to take advantage of the network that is closer to your property. Downers do that sort of work all the time.

If there is a specific technical reason why the job can't be done (i.e - they can't splice into the copper under your drive, or a connection back to the cabinet would require the install of the converter, etc) - then they will let you know.  Also - if there is a resource consent issue, or wider network policy issue - they will know in short order. In short - there is no reason why you can't contract Downers directly. For Downers - whether or not the order comes from Telecom or the public - it makes no difference to them.

Telecom wont even give me a price to have the work done at my expense - their only reply is "we don't do that". Oh for competition!
Wont help in this case. Unless someone were to invest in duplicate network - the likelyhood of having multiple copper of fibre to choose from is unlikely - and there's no guarantee you wouldn't  strike a bureaucrat there either (lets face it - every company has their "its not our policy" types).


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