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  Reply # 472741 23-May-2011 08:31 Send private message

l43a2: Verizon Wireless, or the FIOS/ADSL services?


Verizon. Verizon Wireless is another company. Although the latest talk is their CEO saying "they are not  planning anything in this area", although it probably means they are.

The move to limited unlimited in mobile data is old story. It's been happening for some time. But AT&T, Comcast are the biggest players in fixed broadband and they are limiting...




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  Reply # 472745 23-May-2011 08:41 Send private message

CoolAs101: Thank you for all your replies I have since found many other post around the web and sadly looks like we will always have data caps :( And yes I knew that mobile carriers were removing their unlimited plans. Lets hope we see some of those 100gb+ plans come in to play soon and at a reasonable price.


I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.


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  Reply # 472786 23-May-2011 09:16 Send private message

sbiddle: If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.


+1

I can see this being the way forward, rather than ISPs offering unlimited everything plans.

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  Reply # 473029 23-May-2011 15:34 Send private message


If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.



What, you mean like how domestic traffic used to be free on ADSL? They scrapped that, and it was one of the most annoying things ever, as it offered downloaders no incentive to use a local mirror, other than perhaps a speed benefit (although that depends on a few factors, as has been suggested on the speedtest threads). In a sense, local traffic now 'subsidises' international traffic. Local is a lot easier to retrieve since it doesn't cross the Southern Cross cable, but from the end-user's point of view, there's no difference.

I'd like to think you're right about that being the direction things are heading in. All I'm saying is, there was once a system whereby we had unlimited traffic, and ISPs scrapped it, so I wonder why the same thing wouldn't eventually happen if anyone decided to bring it in again.

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  Reply # 473032 23-May-2011 15:41 Send private message

greaneyr:
What, you mean like how domestic traffic used to be free on ADSL?

[snip]


How do you tell that traffic is local? Apart from looking at the bill at the end of the month. How does a 'normal' user tell which traffic is local? 

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  Reply # 473048 23-May-2011 15:53 Send private message

They dont which is why it went the way of the dodo




All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 


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  Reply # 473055 23-May-2011 16:14 Send private message

sbiddle: I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.


I do not see this as a valid question. What I use my broadband for is of no concern to my ISP. If I break the law then there are penalties associated with that. I would like to have all my bits allocated to me equally rather than being given zero rated traffic to 'legitimate' uses of my bandwidth and being informed in an implied manner that any other uses are 'illegitimate'.

I will always favour the ISP who does not zero rate certain traffic at the expense of general data allowance and always give my money to an ISP who does their best to provide a high quality service with large data allowances.

I cannot see a reason that unlimited or at the very least extremely capacious plans are unfeasible. There is a cost associated with providing large amounts of bandwidth to customers and they will be coming down once SxC & Pacific Fibre begin competing. The reason the costs are so high and the data allowances so low in New Zealand is the lack of competition which has allowed an unnecessarily high cost per Mbit/s for bandwidth exist. I can already see the replies moaning that SxC have costs to maintain the cable and so on but I wonder what the price per Mbit/s is from SxC compared to, say AAG, TPE or TPN-P. Their cost will be much less with the same maintenance costs...

I have seen mention of AT&T and Comcast and other countries bringing in data caps but at the same time I see iiNet in Australia offering 1TB of data per month (500/500 on and off peak) for around NZD$130.00 per month.

The generalisation that data caps are inevitable is not accurate.



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  Reply # 473066 23-May-2011 16:31 Send private message

sbiddle:
CoolAs101: Thank you for all your replies I have since found many other post around the web and sadly looks like we will always have data caps :( And yes I knew that mobile carriers were removing their unlimited plans. Lets hope we see some of those 100gb+ plans come in to play soon and at a reasonable price.


I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.



Well at the moment I watch ALOT of youtube and I also do a lot of legitimate movie renting/downloading from itunes. Also as I am with Telecom currently so Isky, (like TVNZ ondemand but for sky subscribers) counts towards my monthly data cap. On average I would use about 50gb per month even though my cap is only 40gb and that is with me heavily monitoring my usage. Also I do alot of temporary gaming server hosting. If my data cap was say 100gb per month it would allow users to watch HD youtube (as I currently watch 360p to minimize broadband usage), HD Skype calls, and also it would hopefully introduce more online movie streaming services such as services similar to netflix.




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  Reply # 473069 23-May-2011 16:39 Send private message

1080p:
I cannot see a reason that unlimited or at the very least extremely capacious plans are unfeasible.


The two are not at all the same thing.  I would very much like the cost to come down/caps to increase, but 'unlimited' has some problems, to wit:

It is common to refer to an ‘average’ user, but in a strict mathematical sense, no such thing exists. ‘Mean’ or ‘Average’ is only defined for a Normal (or Gaussian) distribution, and Internet usage patterns are not even approximately Normal, with a very few customers using very large amounts of bandwidth.

If the distribution were Normal, then most customers would pay about what their services cost; those using very little would pay much more (subsidise the other users); and those using a lot would pay much less than their service cost. However, regardless of any perceived unfairness with this model, given sufficiently low costs the benefits to the customer could outweigh the disadvantages.

But, the distribution is not even remotely Normal, and the costs are not low. In reality, if this usage pattern did not change, and the ISP charged a flat rate price at the usage midpoint, then most customers, probably 80%, would be paying for more than they used and would be subsidising the 20% of highest users. That would inevitably mean than most customers would have to pay more than they would have been paying for a capped service—except for the heaviest users who would pay much less.

Of course, the usage pattern would change. At the moment, even the heaviest users are still constrained by cost. That constraint would vanish and they would use even more. At the moment the average users are also constrained by cost. They would certainly feel justified in using more, given that their usage was now unconstrained and that their charges had gone up. That would inevitably lead to higher usage, leading to higher costs to the ISP, with no concomitant revenue. The result would of course be further price rises.

This contention for a common resource pool is exactly the classic “Tragedy of the Commons”, where game theory predicts that pursuing the most rational individual strategy inevitably leads to destruction of the resource and a loss for all concerned.

Usage charging. Usage charging/data caps has the following desirable characteristics:


  • It matches costs

  • It is easy to do


Simplicity here results in low cost, compared to complex methods which result in the customer paying largely for the privilege of being sent a bill.


  • It is fair


Customers pay for what they use. Customers don’t subsidise other customers. In particular, customers who use little resource don’t subside customers who use a lot of resource.


  • It is content neutral


The fundamental driver behind the success of the Internet is that all power and innovation comes from the edge. The Internet is not driven by the carriers deciding what services to sell, but by end-users creating innovative new services to be carried on the Internet.

Volume charging doesn’t care what is carried, so there is zero incentive for the carrier to prefer one sort of traffic to another and hence to try to control what its customers use the Internet for.

 

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  Reply # 473104 23-May-2011 18:00 Send private message

Sometimes the speedcaps (aka slingshot) match peoples budgets...

Despite having been debated and tried many times over many years, the speed of user connections always outpaces the price of international bandwidth and probably always will at the bottom of the South Pacific.

On a happier note, some ISP apparently offer deals on domestic traffic that are uncapped at offpeak times etc, and some providers have a more expensive uncapped business plan, if you can afford $500 per month.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 473108 23-May-2011 18:12 Send private message

CoolAs101:
sbiddle:
CoolAs101: Thank you for all your replies I have since found many other post around the web and sadly looks like we will always have data caps :( And yes I knew that mobile carriers were removing their unlimited plans. Lets hope we see some of those 100gb+ plans come in to play soon and at a reasonable price.


I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.



Well at the moment I watch ALOT of youtube and I also do a lot of legitimate movie renting/downloading from itunes. Also as I am with Telecom currently so Isky, (like TVNZ ondemand but for sky subscribers) counts towards my monthly data cap. On average I would use about 50gb per month even though my cap is only 40gb and that is with me heavily monitoring my usage. Also I do alot of temporary gaming server hosting. If my data cap was say 100gb per month it would allow users to watch HD youtube (as I currently watch 360p to minimize broadband usage), HD Skype calls, and also it would hopefully introduce more online movie streaming services such as services similar to netflix.





you need to look at Snap , Isky is free data and they are bringing in you tube and itunes unlimited data for a set price per month , ($2-$4 )



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  Reply # 473115 23-May-2011 18:21 Send private message

vexxxboy:
CoolAs101:
sbiddle:
CoolAs101: Thank you for all your replies I have since found many other post around the web and sadly looks like we will always have data caps :( And yes I knew that mobile carriers were removing their unlimited plans. Lets hope we see some of those 100gb+ plans come in to play soon and at a reasonable price.


I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.



Well at the moment I watch ALOT of youtube and I also do a lot of legitimate movie renting/downloading from itunes. Also as I am with Telecom currently so Isky, (like TVNZ ondemand but for sky subscribers) counts towards my monthly data cap. On average I would use about 50gb per month even though my cap is only 40gb and that is with me heavily monitoring my usage. Also I do alot of temporary gaming server hosting. If my data cap was say 100gb per month it would allow users to watch HD youtube (as I currently watch 360p to minimize broadband usage), HD Skype calls, and also it would hopefully introduce more online movie streaming services such as services similar to netflix.





you need to look at Snap , Isky is free data and they are bringing in you tube and itunes unlimited data for a set price per month , ($2-$4 )


Very good suggestion! Thanks heaps I had never even heard of them before :)
 




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  Reply # 473172 23-May-2011 21:09 Send private message

michaeln:
greaneyr:
What, you mean like how domestic traffic used to be free on ADSL?

[snip]


How do you tell that traffic is local? Apart from looking at the bill at the end of the month. How does a 'normal' user tell which traffic is local? 


Why is KAREN able to make this distinction then? You pay your KAREN subscription, then have all you can eat data to any KAREN subscriber, but data cap to everything else. The user gets no prompt, data either flows through KAREN, or it flows from the public cloud. I realise KAREN is an entirely different beast to public Internet, but the point is, there are services out there which are aimed at 'normal' users, that do indeed make the distinction you're suggesting can't (or shouldn't) be made.

Also, how do you know you're visiting one of the hypothetical free content providers? Sure, you might think that by typing 'www.facebook.com' you are going to Facebook, which is free in our imaginary scenario... but what about the ads? external images? videos?

Haven't we just moved the same problem to another part of the Internet?

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  Reply # 473186 23-May-2011 21:47 Send private message

greaneyr:

Why is KAREN able to make this distinction then? You pay your KAREN subscription, then have all you can eat data to any KAREN subscriber, but data cap to everything else. The user gets no prompt, data either flows through KAREN, or it flows from the public cloud. I realise KAREN is an entirely different beast to public Internet, but the point is, there are services out there which are aimed at 'normal' users, that do indeed make the distinction you're suggesting can't (or shouldn't) be made.

Also, how do you know you're visiting one of the hypothetical free content providers? Sure, you might think that by typing 'www.facebook.com' you are going to Facebook, which is free in our imaginary scenario... but what about the ads? external images? videos?

Haven't we just moved the same problem to another part of the Internet?


KAREN doesn't work like that. (It doesn't make that distinction, as below, it's your router)
KAREN only advertises routes (v4 and v6) to other research networks such as AARNET and Internet2 and the EU research networks. (They also advertise routes to most google sites)

AFAIK, you only pay for a port and physical connection to KAREN. You still need to buy a commodity internet connection. Your router (a proper Cisco/Juniper/etc) can figure out which to route packets through. (Google/stanford.edu/canterbury.ac.nz will go via KAREN, the rest via your normal ISP)

And it's easy to tell which connection you're going through, you do a traceroute. If it hops out onto KAREN, it's "free".



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  Reply # 473264 24-May-2011 07:22 Send private message

CoolAs101:
vexxxboy:
CoolAs101:
sbiddle:
CoolAs101: Thank you for all your replies I have since found many other post around the web and sadly looks like we will always have data caps :( And yes I knew that mobile carriers were removing their unlimited plans. Lets hope we see some of those 100gb+ plans come in to play soon and at a?reasonable?price.


I guess the question needs to be asked - what exactly do you use a 100GB + plan for?

If it's torrenting copyrighted content then you're breaking the law and I don't see why an ISP should help you out by encouraging it.

If it's more legitimate uses such as YouTube, iTunes downloads etc, I see a future where it becomes the norm for ISP's to offer a fixed price for zero rated access to content providers such as this as local CDN's make this cost effective. Snap have already announced this.



Well at the moment I watch ALOT of youtube and I also do a lot of?legitimate?movie renting/downloading from itunes. Also as I am with Telecom currently so Isky, (like TVNZ ondemand but for sky subscribers)?counts towards my monthly data cap. On average I would use about 50gb per month even though my cap is only 40gb and that is with me heavily monitoring my usage. Also I do alot of?temporary?gaming server hosting. If my data cap was say 100gb per month it would allow users to watch HD youtube (as I currently watch 360p to minimize broadband usage), HD Skype calls, and also it would hopefully introduce more online movie streaming services such as services similar to netflix.





you need to look at Snap , Isky is free data and they are bringing in you tube and itunes unlimited data for a set price per month , ($2-$4 )


Very good suggestion! Thanks heaps I had never even heard of them before :)
?


I'm currently in the US, and have a 250GB cap on my data use. With a family of 5 using a relatively large amount of video streaming services ( e.g. Hulu, Netflix, Comcast's Xfinity) plus Skype video, software updates and purchases etc we regularly come close to this cap.

Once you include (legal) torrents of things such as Linux distributions, online backup services etc., it is definitely possible to go through this much data without breaking the law...while a bit harder in NZ where Netflix etc are not available, the advent of iSky and TVNZ & TV3 on demand services are starting to fill the gaps. There is a rumor that BBC are launching a worldwide available subscription service version of their iPlayer apps which would certainly be interesting.

The advent of realistic caps that are 100GB + would certainly be a good thing, and I don't think that the average user wants to spend all their time worried about where their data is coming from, so hopefully the Pacific cable goes ahead and drives down the cost of international bandwidth to the point where it's just not worth worrying about the difference from an ISP billing point of view.

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