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  Reply # 1743105 17-Mar-2017 23:13 Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

gregmcc:

 

mattwnz:

 

robfish:

 

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

 

 

 

 

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age. 

 

 In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that. 

 

 

 

 

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?  

 

 

 

 

Consumer has a table for expected life of products under the CGA, but their is a range depending on the value/quality of it and the use it has had. But Tivos are quite high quality as they did retail for nearly $1000 when Spark were selling them.

 

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

 

 

Harddrives can potentially last a long time. I have a PC from the late 80's and the harddrive still words fine. But hard drives could be seen as a consumable part that can be replaced. eg if your computers harddrive fails you just take it into a repair agent to get it repaired, and they switch out the harddrive, you don't replace the entire computer. Also manufacturers are required to have spare parts reasonably available for the service life, so that products can be repaired. Just because a harddrive dies, doesn't mean that the product has reached teh end of it's life. If that was the case anyone who purchased a windows OEM license would have to buy a new license everytime their harddrive failed. Instead the license to tied to the motherboard, and that seems to be industry practice when software is tied to hardware.


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  Reply # 1743464 18-Mar-2017 17:52 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.


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  Reply # 1743523 18-Mar-2017 19:32 Send private message quote this post

tangerz:

 

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.

 

 

 

 

I think they were meaning that they wouldn't pay extra money, just to get a smart TV. If it is built in and people aren't paying more, and if the TV is still fully usable without the smart features, or it won't get remoted crippled by the manufacturer with an update or them turning off their server, then I can't see a problem. 


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  Reply # 1743657 19-Mar-2017 07:37 Send private message quote this post

 

 

Tivo box is not faulty, so no claim. Same if Freeview changed its EPG protocol so that Freeview devices wont now work  with the new EPG

 

The service that will stop is Hybrid TV's, claim on them, but they went bust. And what value?

 

Tivo owns the rights to the service, but they have never provided it, Hybrid did.

 

 

 

Tivo will still allow you to watch Freeview channels. You can record them, albeit manually, bot not ideal. 

 

What is the life from a CGA view? 5 Years? 10 years? W]Is the Tivo really a high quality device based on price? It was $1000. That not high for a 2009 PVR. It also includes the licence for a proprietary version of Freeview, what value was that? 

 

Deduct the period of full use as you cannot expect to get a refund for the whole period you used it to cover that small remaining CGA life time, if there is one.

 

Its grey, but the device is old, it still provides functions apart from the EPG, and if we expect everything we own to last a lifetime, that makes new devices a hard sell, as well as maintaining old devices.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1743659 19-Mar-2017 07:39 Send private message quote this post

tangerz:

 

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.

 

 

They will. Its the non hard box service provided by a licence that does not work. That isn't Spark or NL's fault, its not the Tivo brand's fault, its Hybrid's fault.


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  Reply # 1743682 19-Mar-2017 08:48 Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

tangerz:

 

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.

 

 

They will. Its the non hard box service provided by a licence that does not work. That isn't Spark or NL's fault, its not the Tivo brand's fault, its Hybrid's fault.

 

 

 

 

The law is quite clear, the manufacturer or importer or RETAILER are required to take responsibility, Tivo is the overseas manufacturer, no legal recourse there, Hybrid the importer are gone so that's a dead end, that leavers the retailer Spark and Noel Lemming. If the retailer is selling a product without realising they are offering a "Product lifetime service" that is their mess up, and when there is no recourse with the manufacturer or importer they get to bare the cost of putting it right.

 

Just like any contract agreed to by two parties, you just can't walk away from it when it becomes a burden, retail sales and purchase are also governed by the consumer guarantees act when for personal use, as of 1st Nov 17 Tivo's will no longer be fit for their intended purpose, it's not like they have worn out and suffered a natural failure, the product lifetime service is been turned off, this service was advertised as lifetime, the unit's themselves say that, T&C's have been changed, this is out of the control of Spark or NL's but as the retailer the law says they must take responsibility. 

 

It will properly take a formal complaint to the Disputes Tribunal to resolve this.

 

 


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  Reply # 1743685 19-Mar-2017 08:56 Send private message quote this post

gregmcc:

 

tdgeek:

 

tangerz:

 

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.

 

 

They will. Its the non hard box service provided by a licence that does not work. That isn't Spark or NL's fault, its not the Tivo brand's fault, its Hybrid's fault.

 

 

 

 

The law is quite clear, the manufacturer or importer or RETAILER are required to take responsibility, Tivo is the overseas manufacturer, no legal recourse there, Hybrid the importer are gone so that's a dead end, that leavers the retailer Spark and Noel Lemming. If the retailer is selling a product without realising they are offering a "Product lifetime service" that is their mess up, and when there is no recourse with the manufacturer or importer they get to bare the cost of putting it right.

 

Just like any contract agreed to by two parties, you just can't walk away from it when it becomes a burden, retail sales and purchase are also governed by the consumer guarantees act when for personal use, as of 1st Nov 17 Tivo's will no longer be fit for their intended purpose, it's not like they have worn out and suffered a natural failure, the product lifetime service is been turned off, this service was advertised as lifetime, the unit's themselves say that, T&C's have been changed, this is out of the control of Spark or NL's but as the retailer the law says they must take responsibility. 

 

It will properly take a formal complaint to the Disputes Tribunal to resolve this.

 

 

 

 

Thats assuming that you take the Tivo as the whole package, i.e. the box, and the proprietary Tivo EPG service.

 

1. As @sbiddle pointed out, CGA will not cover consequential loss. The EPG is just that, everything else works, play, record, but the EPG will soon stop.

 

2. What does the T+C's say about lifetime? 

 

 

 

The only grey areas are"lifetime" and I assume the T+C;s cover the issues with the licence, as at time of release there could be no guarantee that the licence will last forever.

 

That the box will box will brick if reset is another grey area. Pity they cannot provide an update for that.

 

The devices are up to 8 years old. You would think that the end of licence, and the recommendation to cease using the box were made after legal checks of the T+C's, and the CGA, and surely that must be the case, and if so, its all been covered off.


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  Reply # 1743688 19-Mar-2017 08:59 Send private message quote this post

gregmcc:

 

tdgeek:

 

tangerz:

 

Maxcat:

 

 

 

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO. 

 

 

Be prepared for a pretty low spec TV then. I understand what you're trying to say but the fact is that any decent screen will, by default, be a 'Smart TV'.

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software. 

 

 

No they won't work exactly as before. No EPG means extremely limited functionality compared to what they were.

 

 

They will. Its the non hard box service provided by a licence that does not work. That isn't Spark or NL's fault, its not the Tivo brand's fault, its Hybrid's fault.

 

 

 

 

The law is quite clear, the manufacturer or importer or RETAILER are required to take responsibility, Tivo is the overseas manufacturer, no legal recourse there, Hybrid the importer are gone so that's a dead end, that leavers the retailer Spark and Noel Lemming. If the retailer is selling a product without realising they are offering a "Product lifetime service" that is their mess up, and when there is no recourse with the manufacturer or importer they get to bare the cost of putting it right.

 

Just like any contract agreed to by two parties, you just can't walk away from it when it becomes a burden, retail sales and purchase are also governed by the consumer guarantees act when for personal use, as of 1st Nov 17 Tivo's will no longer be fit for their intended purpose, it's not like they have worn out and suffered a natural failure, the product lifetime service is been turned off, this service was advertised as lifetime, the unit's themselves say that, T&C's have been changed, this is out of the control of Spark or NL's but as the retailer the law says they must take responsibility. 

 

It will properly take a formal complaint to the Disputes Tribunal to resolve this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nicely worded with clear understanding here.

 

The other 'smoking gun' component is the advice contained in the email to dispose of the unit: Your TiVo device will have extremely limited functionality and we discourage customers from using it after 31 October.

 

It will be only a matter of time unti I or others lodge formal complaints. However encouraging progress does seem to be being made at the Whirlpool Forums.

 

 


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  Reply # 1743845 19-Mar-2017 15:19 Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

 

 

1. As @sbiddle pointed out, CGA will not cover consequential loss. The EPG is just that, everything else works, play, record, but the EPG will soon stop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to Consumer NZ consequential losses ARE covered by the CGA. I am not sure where @sbiddle got their info that it isn't covered? More info here https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/consumer-guarantees-act 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1743847 19-Mar-2017 15:25 2 people support this post Send private message quote this post

mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

1. As @sbiddle pointed out, CGA will not cover consequential loss. The EPG is just that, everything else works, play, record, but the EPG will soon stop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to Consumer NZ consequential losses ARE covered by the CGA. I am not sure where @sbiddle got their info that it isn't covered? More info here https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/consumer-guarantees-act 

 

 

 

When I said that I meant it in regards to the OP on that thread who seemed to consider "damages for the loss of enjoyment and functionality provided by the Tivo". This doesn't really fit into the realm of a consequential loss.

 

 


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  Reply # 1743857 19-Mar-2017 15:51 Send private message quote this post

sbiddle:

mattwnz:


tdgeek:


 


1. As @sbiddle pointed out, CGA will not cover consequential loss. The EPG is just that, everything else works, play, record, but the EPG will soon stop.


 



 


According to Consumer NZ consequential losses ARE covered by the CGA. I am not sure where @sbiddle got their info that it isn't covered? More info here https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/consumer-guarantees-act 


 


When I said that I meant it in regards to the OP on that thread who seemed to consider "damages for the loss of enjoyment and functionality provided by the Tivo". This doesn't really fit into the realm of a consequential loss.


 



Ok. I agree.

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  Reply # 1744067 19-Mar-2017 21:07 Send private message quote this post

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the 36 pages here, but I was taking a look at Silicon Dust's HD HomeRun (I have one of their older HD HomeRun devices sitting here collecting dust at the moment) DVR service? For $60 a year (USD I presume) it doesn't seem to unreasonable does it? And if you have an NAS that could potentially be your storage for live TV recordings etc. I have a Synology NAS coming so might bring back out my legacy HD HomeRun and play around with it!

 

I also heard Plex DVR is good (although currently only available for Plex Pass subscribers), so if you are a Plex Pass subscriber, perhaps no need to sign up to Silicon Dust's DVR service.

 

EDIT: $60 for the first year of Silicon Dust DVR Service which includes early bird access, and subsequent years are $35 for TV guide subscription including 14 full days of program guide.





Matthew

 

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  Reply # 1744109 19-Mar-2017 21:31 Send private message quote this post

sonyxperiageek:

 

 

 

I also heard Plex DVR is good (although currently only available for Plex Pass subscribers), 

 

 

 

 

I heard the total opposite. In fact, I've seen lots of complaints about the EPG and its accuracy.


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  Reply # 1745104 21-Mar-2017 10:27 Send private message quote this post

I'm late to this thread, but has any work been done on a hack to provide the TiVo box with an alternative to listing source? Or is it too difficult to reverse engineer the source and stick in a static DNS entry ... nat redirect or other ...

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  Reply # 1745114 21-Mar-2017 10:53 Send private message quote this post

MadEngineer: I'm late to this thread, but has any work been done on a hack to provide the TiVo box with an alternative to listing source? Or is it too difficult to reverse engineer the source and stick in a static DNS entry ... nat redirect or other ...

 

This has been on ongoing project on Whirlpool, long before this announcement (remember there have been some fairly long outages of EPG data in recent months).

 

A static DNS entry won't work - you actually need the content for the Tivo to access it. Unlike the Gen1 Tivo where people could do this, it seems like a project that may not be possible.


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