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483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256803 18-Sep-2009 11:53 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:
friedCrumpet: Seriously, can you guys honestly say that the current situation is better than if TiVo was ISP agnostic?

Balchy: I already acknowledged and mentioned many of the choices you listed.  But what has happened with TiVo here is reducing choice.

nate: Others have said that TiVo is not talking to other ISPs.  I suspect whatever deal they have made with Telecom is exclusive.  Also as I said, sometimes people have good reasons for not wanting to switch ISPs.  So tough luck to them eh?  In the end I suspect it's tough luck for TiVo as they are missing out on a sale.



Better for whom?

 

We don’t know the details of Telecom’s agreement with TiVo so we can’t really say,  but hypothetically Telecom might refuse to provide unmetered downloading on TiVo if they didn’t have exclusivity.  Voda and Telstra might be forced to do the same if they have existing agreements with Sky that prevent them working with other TV distribution methods.  The remaining ISPs in the country amunt to less than 10% market share put together I would say.

 

What that would mean is,  if TiVo stood their ground and refused to sign an exclusive deal with Telecom, then it could mean that unmetered content is not available to anyone, or maybe only to customers of the smallest ISPs (who may not even have the free cash flow to build unmetering anyway)

 

Also, we don’t know, but maybe Telecom are subsidising the box just like they do with modems and cellphones?  Who knows, if they didn’t get the exclusive agreement then maybe the box price would be $1000+ given our small country's lack of bulk buying power?


+1




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256806 18-Sep-2009 11:55 Send private message

friedCrumpet:
Balchy: crumpet, how is it reducing choice? it is providing additional choice by being another potential source for content...


If you want TiVo (full functionality) it reduces your choice of ISP to 1.

If you have a different ISP you can't have fully functioning TiVo.

They are restrictions on your freedom to purchase a product on it's independent merits.




There are also restrictions on my "Freedom" if I want to access telecom content on my vodafone mobile.




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

598 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 256810 18-Sep-2009 12:06 Send private message

Balchy: There are also restrictions on my "Freedom" if I want to access telecom content on my vodafone mobile.


But in this situation is the online content, that you access via your TiVo box, Telecom content or TiVo content? Genuine question as I don't know.

If it's Telecom produced and delivered content then the argument ends here and it's all well and cool for this to be an exclusive tie-up for Telecom broadband customers.

If it's TiVo produced and delivered content that is being restricted to only Telecom customers then I think it's understandable that people are crying anti-competitiveness.

483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256811 18-Sep-2009 12:09 Send private message

bcourtney:
Balchy: There are also restrictions on my "Freedom" if I want to access telecom content on my vodafone mobile.


But in this situation is the online content, that you access via your TiVo box, Telecom content or TiVo content? Genuine question as I don't know.

If it's Telecom produced and delivered content then the argument ends here and it's all well and cool for this to be an exclusive tie-up for Telecom broadband customers.

If it's TiVo produced and delivered content that is being restricted to only Telecom customers then I think it's understandable that people are crying anti-competitiveness.


I get your point and it is a very good one, however does not this put sky mobile tv intothe same realm?  Its not produced by vodafone but is delivered to its customers only...genuine question




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

163 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 256813 18-Sep-2009 12:14 Send private message

Don't worry all of the Telstra customers out there as they will have their PVR up and running by Christmas.

yeah right.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 256814 18-Sep-2009 12:18 Send private message

Balchy:I get your point and it is a very good one, however does not this put sky mobile tv intothe same realm?  Its not produced by vodafone but is delivered to its customers only...genuine question


Yeah possibly - although difficult to compare. One is a service and the other is a piece of hardware and a service directly related to that piece of hardware. One of the main functions and selling points of the TiVo box is to provide this online content. Everywhere else that it's available there aren't these restrictions.

Let's be fair, most of us have a reasonable idea about what TiVo is and how it works due to our exposure to Hollywood and the use of the TiVo name usage in TV shows and movies etc ("Can't see the game so I'll just TiVo it" etc). A number of people that would have been keen to possibly jump on board and get the device and pay for the associated services have been stopped at the first hurdle.

268 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 256815 18-Sep-2009 12:19 Send private message

NonprayingMantis: You bring up some good counter arguments.  I still think I'd prefer no restrictions on my choice of ISP over potentially higher prices.

Balchy:  You asked how it was reducing choice, I told you how.  Bringing up other examples of choice reduction is beside the point.





483 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 256818 18-Sep-2009 12:22 Send private message

No you told me your opinion on how, again and this will be the last I will say on the matter as we are going round in circles, that it is content that is in question her, and adding another set of content is adding to the market not removing it.

Lets say there are X services offering content to the marketplace.
Add ANY content to X will be an increase in content regardless of who it is made available to. If someone introduced content and restricted it to one person, it would still be an increase in available content, not a reduction...




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

5314 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 256823 18-Sep-2009 12:29 Send private message

friedCrumpet: NonprayingMantis: You bring up some good counter arguments.  I still think I'd prefer no restrictions on my choice of ISP over potentially higher prices.

Balchy:  You asked how it was reducing choice, I told you how.  Bringing up other examples of choice reduction is beside the point.






would you be saying that if you were a telecom customer?  :P


More seriously,  if my hypothetical were true,  then that would mean no unmetered content for anybody, which means TiVo would be just about gauranteed to fail very quickly.

What would you prefer?  TiVo available to everybody but no DLC to anybody but Telecom customers,  or no TiVo at all?


Even as a non-telecom customer you would have to prefer the first option since it at least has some chance of forcing sky to pull finger instead of gouging NZers like they have been doing for years.

If Tivo launched without unmetering Sky would be absolutely loving it.  As it stands even theough it is only available to Telecom customr properly, that is still ~60% of the market, so at least offers some incentive for Sky to improve their services or drop their prices (or both!) in order to keep market share.

A reaosnably successful TiVo laucnh might at least make Sky think twice before they pull out their annual "we have added one crummy channel which you never watch, so need to charge you another $3 per month" letter.

268 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 256826 18-Sep-2009 12:44 Send private message

*sigh* NonprayingMantis you are on the verge of convincing me that this could be a _good_ thing ;)

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  Reply # 256827 18-Sep-2009 12:50 Send private message

friedCrumpet: *sigh* NonprayingMantis you are on the verge of convincing me that this could be a _good_ thing ;)




don't worry, you won't.

It is a scientific fact that it is inpossible for anyone to change their point of view on anything based on a post on an internet forum.   :D

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 256830 18-Sep-2009 13:02 Send private message

friedCrumpet:

If you want TiVo (full functionality) it reduces your choice of ISP to 1.

If you have a different ISP you can't have fully functioning TiVo.

They are restrictions on your freedom to purchase a product on it's independent merits.


If you want to have the features without the temptation of pay-TV and movies-on-demand it reduces your choice of ISP to all but 1. A bonus in my book. If I wanted pay-TV I'd already be using sky.




3001 posts

Uber Geek

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  Reply # 256841 18-Sep-2009 13:33 Send private message

I wonder if the decision was made by Tivo due to general reliability and speed of the service provider? I'm sure they would have done some ground work before leaping in.

Remember that TiVo is a choice, My "PVR" cost me a whole $110 and records and saves unaltered streams direct to a flash drive (which cost $19) and can be plugged into my PC and played back there.

I'm @nate
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  Reply # 257007 19-Sep-2009 12:33 Send private message

paradoxsm: I wonder if the decision was made by Tivo due to general reliability and speed of the service provider? I'm sure they would have done some ground work before leaping in.


I also wonder whether Telecom's majority market share (do I remember reading 60% somewhere, feel free to correct me) would have played a big part.




121 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 257051 19-Sep-2009 16:33 Send private message

Yes a 60% market share of what? Are these telecom broadband users the right target market for a Tivo? I think they should have cast the net narrower not wider....

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