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  Reply # 419076 19-Dec-2010 14:45 Send private message

I agree with OP & DonGould in this instance.

I understand that TiVO have an 'easier' warranty repair/replacement policy (similar to Apple) but in this instance the customer did not know this so made the trip to the retailer. This fact alone should have warranted better after sales service then OP received. Had the customer called the store first and enquired about the process then the retailer would be fine in encouraging the phone support.

In hindsight, what the store should have done in the first place is provide the customer with a warranty card explaining the process for dealing with faults; this is what I do for all customers purchasing laptops and other expensive gear from me.

The problem I have with this situation is the attitude of a retailer when a customer returns faulty goods. This situation is never a good one for a retailer but they always have the option to have the customer leave feeling satisfied and remain happy with their purchase. Fobbing a customer off to move on to the next paying customer may help your bottom line in the long run but will generate a reputation you will not like in the long run.

This thread hasn't been a Telecom bashing one either. I do not think Telecom NZ Ltd. is at fault in this situation nor do I think they are totally blameless. If you franchise your brand out to another company it is your responsibility to make sure your customers are being treated correctly. As the OP has shown, your customers will not always know that Telecom retail stores are not run by Telecom.

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  Reply # 419080 19-Dec-2010 14:59 Send private message

1080p: Fobbing a customer off to move on to the next paying customer may help your bottom line in the long run but will generate a reputation you will not like in the long run.


Did you mean "...bottom line in the short term but will..."

I also agree with your comments about franchising. 

If I walk into an Orb store I make no assumption that it's 'Telecom' and that Telecom is purely on of its many vendors.

In the Riccarton and Shirley malls I think I have every right to assume that the store is Telecom NZ Ltd due to the branding and clear lack of any other information suggesting otherwise.

I think big brand owners such as Shell have to take real care of their brands and have a great deal to loose these days with the ease at which unhappy customers can come on line and blog about their experiences. 

Perhaps after starting in retailing with the PSIS 25 years ago my expectations simply haven't moved with the times and I'm becoming old and grumpy.

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  Reply # 419086 19-Dec-2010 15:26 Send private message

freitasm:


I already explained here that most Telecom branded stores are actually owned by other companies.


Actually all but one of the Telecom stores I've been into are Telecom owned.  Must be a WN thing  where they are farmed out..




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  Reply # 419104 19-Dec-2010 16:08 Send private message



In hindsight, what the store should have done in the first place is provide the customer with a warranty card explaining the process for dealing with faults; this is what I do for all customers purchasing laptops and other expensive gear from me.

.


i would be  very surprised if it didn't come with a warranty card and explanation of the returns process. do we know that to be the case, or are you just assuming it didn't have one?

And for all we know the returns process might require that the tivo guy tests things down the customers internet - a fix could be as simple as a software update or a change in the settings of the customers modem. 
 
And, not to labour the point,  remember that we do only have the OPs side of the story. 
From working in brown good retail many years ago I know that the adage that 'the customer is always right' is wrong more often that it is right.  Many customers will simply remember stuff totally wrongly (or worse, make stuff up) if it makes their story sound better when he tells it to people.  We know that the OP was told about the 0800 number, maybe the guy in the store offered to make the call but recommended that the customer do it himself because he wrongly assumed that the customer would want to use the simple option for returning the TiVo rather than the most long winded pointlessly complicated method.

ETA: where i worked our warranty faulty goods policy depended on the manufacturer. some manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic) refused to go through us and insisted on the customer calling them direct. They could run over the phone diagnostics, often fixing the problem right then and there, and give the customer a superior service that way.  If we made the call, then the customer would often have left the store and so if the fault was fixed over the phone then we would have to call the customer back up and he would comeback to the store. (and this was before cellphones so this would usually be several days later when they could come back)
all in all, the customer calling direct was the fastest, cheapest, most convenient option for everyone involved - especially for the customer.

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  Reply # 419119 19-Dec-2010 16:46 Send private message

NonprayingMantis: 'the customer is always right' is wrong more often that it is right.


This is where your customer service skills really get tested and all to often I find the skills of the providers lacking.

I 100% agree with you about customers simply being wrong.

In the tech space it's my view that we have to do more and more every day to provide customer education. 

This is one of the reasons why I think public forums are so amazing. 

Take this thread for example, today I've learnt what the TiVo support policy is and I don't even own one.

As for the warranty card issue... out of interest, is there a sticker on the unit anywhere?

I'm amazed often how the kit can come with an array of annoying sales stickers that I have to pull off but all to often lack a simple 'service and support' sticker.

In my view retailers should give you a sticker to put on your gear if they can't be bothered unpacking it enough to slip a sticker on the unit before you take it away.  Personally I even keep a stack of those in my wallet to sticking on stuff.

I guess that once we get IPv6 implemented properly and every house has wifi, every new gadgit in your house will have gps chips in it and just report in to its manufacture to tell it where it is and how healthy it is. 

If your projector needs a new filter then it will email the local filter shop/tech who will then just call you up and offer his services to you.








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  Reply # 419206 19-Dec-2010 21:42 Send private message

As for the warranty card issue... out of interest, is there a sticker on the unit anywhere?



Don't recall a sticker anywhere, but you have to register the unit on the website and it is very clear on there what to do if you have a problem (ie ring the 0800 number).

I agree poor performance by the retailer.  But at the end of the day rather than ranting off to the shop in this case demanding this and that a couple of mouse clicks would have had the OP much happier I am sure.

Demanding compliance with the CGA from the retailer in this case is kinda cutting off your nose despite your face.  Technically correct but a waste of time.

 




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  Reply # 419212 19-Dec-2010 22:00

NonprayingMantis:
i would be  very surprised if it didn't come with a warranty card and explanation of the returns process. do we know that to be the case, or are you just assuming it didn't have one?



"Sellers cannot exempt themselves from their obligations under the Act, even if they put it in a contract. So, if a retailer puts up a sign saying "No refunds or exchanges" it is meaningless. You still have full rights under the Act."

Maybe Telecom should cover themselves by saying  "Our warranty process involves ringing the following 0800 number" rather than giving the impression that you have to go to Tivo. The Corporation is happy to claim credit for other work done by partners.

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  Reply # 419213 19-Dec-2010 22:00 Send private message

scuwp:Don't recall a sticker anywhere, but you have to register the unit on the website 


The reason you put a sticker on it is because in most cases you'll have long since forgotten anything you might (or prob didn't) read on the web site when the thing goes bung.


scuwp: ranting off to the shop in this case demanding this and that a couple of mouse clicks would have had the OP much happier I am sure.


I think you miss the whole point of why people choose to go to a shop in the first place.  It's the bricks and mortar thing.


scuwp: Demanding compliance with the CGA from the retailer in this case is kinda cutting off your nose despite your face.  Technically correct but a waste of time.


In my experience ppl get to the point of ranting/demanding CGA once the their frustration level has hit a point past the limit of their tolerance for poor service.

Now don't get me wrong...  I completely agree with anyone who suggests that more and more people are demanding less price and just expecting service levels to stay the same.

This is what regulation is for.  As a seller you choose a point at which you simply don't sell products because meeting the minimum level of service as required under law makes the propitiation untenable.

The problem occurs when sellers just feel that the regulations don't apply to the sale because of the price point they provided the goods to the customer or an agreement they may have with their suppliers.

In the case of the OP I completely agree with everyone who suggested that by far the quickest way to get service on this product is to follow the advice the retailer give him and get the wholesaler to sort it out.

The problem is that the OP isn't interested in a quick self help solution, he wants a full service solution as per the sellers obligations under the CGA. 

He wants to just deliver the broken box back to the place he purchased it from, present is receipt/proof of purchase and have someone else sort out what ever needs doing to return the box to the working condition that it was in when he purchased it from said seller.

Under current .nz CGA, AIUI, he's entitled to just that expectation and if the seller doesn't like that fact then they should never have sold him the unit. 

It is important to note in this sort of case that sellers are not obligated to make sales just because they make a product offer AIUI.  Again, INAL.

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  Reply # 419217 19-Dec-2010 22:12 Send private message

Bung: Maybe Telecom should cover themselves by saying  "Our warranty process involves ringing the following 0800 number" rather than giving the impression that you have to go to Tivo. The Corporation is happy to claim credit for other work done by partners.


Again INAL, but I'm not 100% sure that telling the customer what your warranty process is would be of any benefit.

IIRC The concept of the CGA is that the obligation is on the seller to make any required follow up with third parties.

Sure, the seller can ask the customer to wait while they make a call to a third party.  The seller can even hand the phone to the buyer and ask them to answer questions, if the buyer is willing (note: the buyer is under no such obligation).

The sale agreement is between the seller and the buyer. 

The buyers obligation is to return the fault item to the seller.

In making the sale the seller is actually required to have service ability to turn around a repair in a 'reasonable amount of time'.  In the case of a TV that's used every day it's not reasonable to the buyer to leave the store without a TV. 

So, your choices as the seller are to either repair, replace or refund the buyer, then take up any issues you need to take up with your suppliers.

If your supplier has said that they will provide direct customer support that's fine.  But the customer isn't obligated to accept or use it.  The purchase agreement is not with the third party, it's with the seller.

Is all this fair on the seller?

Well after reading the rules for myself the first time I was left wondering why anyone would want to bother sell anything to anyone in a consumer space anymore!

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  Reply # 419227 19-Dec-2010 22:35 Send private message

Bung: "Sellers cannot exempt themselves from their obligations under the Act, even if they put it in a contract. So, if a retailer puts up a sign saying "No refunds or exchanges" it is meaningless. You still have full rights under the Act."



Where is this quote from?

Bung: Maybe Telecom should cover themselves by saying  "Our warranty process involves ringing the following 0800 number" rather than giving the impression that you have to go to Tivo. The Corporation is happy to claim credit for other work done by partners.


TiVo is not a Telecom product. Telecom stores sell TiVo under an agreement. Your suggested sentence "Our warranty process" should not be issued by Telecom because it's not Telecom's process, it's TiVo's process, a completely different company.

TiVo is not a Telecom company. It's owned by Hybrid Television Services. Is that clear now?




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  Reply # 419235 19-Dec-2010 22:57 Send private message

freitasm:
Bung: "Sellers cannot exempt themselves from their obligations under the Act, even if they put it in a contract. So, if a retailer puts up a sign saying "No refunds or exchanges" it is meaningless. You still have full rights under the Act."

Where is this quote from?


Bit confused why you'd even ask that Fre, aiui you can't contract out of anything that's regulation in .nz.  That's why contracts always include such clauses normally and outline the country of law that governs the contract.

"No refunds or exchanges" should read "No refunds or exchanges simply for changing your mind." 

If you can show that the goods aren't in fact fit for the purpose that you intended them then you can still request a refund. 

For example, if you say "I only want this if it will work with my tv" and the seller says "sure, it should" and then you get it home and discover that it won't then you can return it for a refund. 

But if you get it home, fire it up and just don't like the colour match with your tv then tough, get out a can of paint (though that might void any warranty on which ever device you decide to repaint).
 
freitasm:TiVo is not a Telecom product. Telecom stores sell TiVo under an agreement.


If TiVo is a product that you purchase by walking in to a Telecom store, seeing it displayed on the shelf, making a payment to a Telecom staff member, walking out with a Telecom receipt in your hand and which Telecom make a profit off, then I think you'd have bucklies chance of convincing a court that Telecom isn't the seller of at least the hardware.

I do agree though with the suggestion that where a product is reliant on a subscription and or media provided by a third party then things really get gray.

It's a bit like the CGA as it applies to ISPs.  The rules that apply to the provision of a service v's the provision of a physical product are very unclear in my view, thought they may have improved since I last had a decent look at it.

I liken this case to a buyer purchasing a DVD payer from a store with a view to using it to watch videos from his local DVD store.

The seller has no control over the product provided by the DVD store but still has obligation to the buyer that the product is fit for the intended purpose.

Is that fair?

D




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  Reply # 419236 19-Dec-2010 22:57 Send private message

The thing that people seem to be missing here, is that irrespective of the fact that Tivo is not a telecom service, the telecom store from which it was bought is the retailer.  If you buy a Sony Tv from Noel leemaing and it breaks, Noel Leeming don't sy go call Sony... 

The proof of purchase and sales contract are with Telecom, not with Hybrid TV, even though the servicing is done through them.  
As such the customer has a perfectly legitimate right to feel that they can take the unit back to the said retailer, and should not be given the runaround.  This is purely a matter of poor customer service, possibly ethic as well.  It does not matter that it is Telecom, this happens in many companies, but that does not mean that it should be tolerated. 
It probably is better to contact Hybrid direct, but that does not absolve Telecom of their responsibilities as the retailer...
 

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  Reply # 419239 19-Dec-2010 23:03 Send private message

DonGould:
freitasm:
Bung: "Sellers cannot exempt themselves from their obligations under the Act, even if they put it in a contract. So, if a retailer puts up a sign saying "No refunds or exchanges" it is meaningless. You still have full rights under the Act."

Where is this quote from?


Bit confused why you'd even ask that Fre, aiui you can't contract out of anything that's regulation in .nz.  That's why contracts always include such clauses normally and outline the country of law that governs the contract.


If it's a quote, it must come from somewhere. I am asking because I don't recall seeing anywhere in the CGA something like "So, if a retailer puts up a sign saying "No refunds or exchanges" it is meaningless. You still have full rights under the Act."

DonGould: If you can show that the goods aren't in fact fit for the purpose that you intended them then you can still request a refund. 

For example, if you say "I only want this if it will work with my tv" and the seller says "sure, it should" and then you get it home and discover that it won't then you can return it for a refund. 


Too much explanation. I know what it is. My request for a reference for the quote is explained above. And it's not about how the CGA works, but where that strangely worded quote comes from. It certainly doesn't read like the words you'd find in the Act. That's all.

DonGould: 
freitasm:TiVo is not a Telecom product. Telecom stores sell TiVo under an agreement.


If TiVo is a product that you purchase by walking in to a Telecom store, seeing it displayed on the shelf, making a payment to a Telecom staff member, walking out with a Telecom receipt in your hand and which Telecom make a profit off, then I think you'd have bucklies chance of convincing a court that Telecom isn't the seller of at least the hardware.


I am not saying it's not being sold by Telecom. I am saying "TiVo" is a brand licensed by Hybrid TV, it's their "product". Hybrid TV is not a Telecom company.

It's the same as saying the a Fisher & Paikel dishwasher is not a Bond & Bond product. It's designed,  manufactured and distributed by Fisher & Paikel. Just because it came out of a Bond & Bond store doesn't make it a Bond & Bond product. The labels and packaging still say "Fisher & Paikel".

I am not saying TiVo is not sold as a "product" at Telecom retail stores. I am just saying Tivo is not licensed and produced by Telecom. 





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  Reply # 419240 19-Dec-2010 23:07 Send private message

GJones: The thing that people seem to be missing here, is that irrespective of the fact that Tivo is not a telecom service, the telecom store from which it was bought is the retailer.  If you buy a Sony Tv from Noel leemaing and it breaks, Noel Leeming don't sy go call Sony... 


I am not the one missing it, and not disputing it. My previous post was just to clear up the misunderstanding that TiVo is a Telecom product. It's not. It's licensed, imported and distributed by Hybrid TV.

GJones: It probably is better to contact Hybrid direct, but that does not absolve Telecom of their responsibilities as the retailer...


Not exactly "Telecom" but the "Telecom retail store", which can be owned by a few companies - Orb for example.

Do you folks realise now you are dealing with at least three entities here, not two? Telecom (store branding, direct deal with Hybrid TV to have exclusive sale channel rights), Telecom store (not owned by Telecom actually),  Hybrid TV (imports and supports the TivO)...



 




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  Reply # 419241 19-Dec-2010 23:11 Send private message

freitasm:I am just saying Tivo is not licensed and produced by Telecom.


Oh, sorry, I didn't clearly understand what you were say.... I'm still not really sure how or why that comment pertains to the discussion, but yes, I agree, TiVo is not a product/service manufactured by Telecom unlike 'XT' for example, which is a Telecom brand.





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