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  Reply # 593499 11-Mar-2012 12:46 Send private message

There is a LOT of terminology in that document, it's pretty mind boggling :0

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  Reply # 593502 11-Mar-2012 12:50 Send private message

networkn: There is a LOT of terminology in that document, it's pretty mind boggling :0


It's not possible to precisely describe something as complex as UFB without using a lot of domain specific terms unfortunately. I don't think there's a lot of rocket science in that doc but it can be daunting at first glance...

Any specific terms that don't make sense?

Cheers - N



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  Reply # 593506 11-Mar-2012 13:02 Send private message

Talkiet:
networkn: There is a LOT of terminology in that document, it's pretty mind boggling :0


It's not possible to precisely describe something as complex as UFB without using a lot of domain specific terms unfortunately. I don't think there's a lot of rocket science in that doc but it can be daunting at first glance...

Any specific terms that don't make sense?

Cheers - N


Well I can't make head nor tail of it, how I am supposed to know what the services required for the type of connection I want are?

When they talk about terminates (What a weird way to describe connection), a 100Mbps/50Mbps Bitstream 2 (What is that) I presume they are talking about putting a point at the customer site to connect the ethernet router to? Why would a 100/50 have a 2.5Mbps Symetrical CIR?

I see Bitstream 2, 3, 3a, 4, E-NNI Port Handover, MOFDF, Direct Fibre Access Service. That's just in 1 Paragraph or two!

I guess that since I can't have UFB right now, I am looking at a P2P Bitstream 4, which is 100Mbps at $380 and if I only want 30Mbps, then the minimum base fee to connect me using the stuff I have access to right now is still $380+GST + Data, + Margin +Misc other charges) , as I understand it?

Seems like Minimal connection will be $600 which is about what I have been looking at.

What is Multicast ongoing fee?

Cheers




 

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  Reply # 593511 11-Mar-2012 13:15 Send private message

networkn: Well I can't make head nor tail of it, how I am supposed to know what the services required for the type of connection I want are?


Well, I'm afraid the correct answer here is you should talk to a Retail Service Provider.

Much like today where the ISP deals with Chorus, the ISPs in the future (often referred to as RSPs or Retail Service Providers) will offer services to end users like yourself, and construct their retail offerings using the component inputs from the LFCs (Local Fibre Companies like Chorus and Northpower)

It's interesting, and the docs are available to end users, but you won't have a relationship with the LFCs yourself - if you don't understand the terms or designs, then let the Retail Service Providers worry about that.

networkn: When they talk about terminates (What a weird way to describe connection), a 100Mbps/50Mbps Bitstream 2 (What is that) I presume they are talking about putting a point at the customer site to connect the ethernet router to? Why would a 100/50 have a 2.5Mbps Symetrical CIR?


Because the access switch port isn't the only possible point of congestion in LFC networks.

networkn: I see Bitstream 2, 3, 3a, 4, E-NNI Port Handover, MOFDF, Direct Fibre Access Service. That's just in 1 Paragraph or two!

I guess that since I can't have UFB right now, I am looking at a P2P Bitstream 4, which is 100Mbps at $380 and if I only want 30Mbps, then the minimum base fee to connect me using the stuff I have access to right now is still $380+GST + Data, + Margin +Misc other charges) , as I understand it?

Seems like Minimal connection will be $600 which is about what I have been looking at.


The price you'll pay includes those things you note, plus others like support costs, share of any backhaul costs, etc etc etc... Only the RSP will be able to give you a final price that you'll end up paying. I guarantee if you try to work it out yourself you'll miss or incorrectly price some inputs and be disappointed.

What is Multicast ongoing fee?


A price input reflecting there's a cost (either in a capacity or support sense) in multicast usage. I don't know too much about this area but I guarantee you as an end user you will never have to worry about this term :-)

 Cheers - N

ps.
BS2, 3, 3a and 4 are BitStream service profiles. They are defined in other docs on the page I linked.
E-NNI Port Handover is "External Network  to Network Interface" Or where the LFC hands across to the RSP network
MOFDF = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_frame
Direct Fibre Access in this context seems to be existing fibre to end users (not GPON or other shared access)



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  Reply # 593513 11-Mar-2012 13:21 Send private message

I guess what I was trying to achieve, what determining what the basic costs were, to determine if what I am being quoted by my RSP is correct. Seems like it probably is, though it's a little unfortunate I guess that the price is SO much different to the UFB pricing. I do understand it's a P2P, so not directly comparable. One option is to see if my neighbours want to share some of the costs in exchange for jumping on the connection too. I presume that these prices aren't going to significantly drop in the recent future, so if I want to jump before UFB, then I may as well jump sooner rather than later? Is that a fair assessment?

Thanks for your assistance and patience.

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  Reply # 593515 11-Mar-2012 13:28 Send private message

networkn: I guess what I was trying to achieve, what determining what the basic costs were, to determine if what I am being quoted by my RSP is correct. Seems like it probably is, though it's a little unfortunate I guess that the price is SO much different to the UFB pricing. I do understand it's a P2P, so not directly comparable. One option is to see if my neighbours want to share some of the costs in exchange for jumping on the connection too. I presume that these prices aren't going to significantly drop in the recent future, so if I want to jump before UFB, then I may as well jump sooner rather than later? Is that a fair assessment?

Thanks for your assistance and patience.


No probs - also note I edtied my post above with more info.

For an incredibly crude comparison (and this may be flawed in many ways)....

GPON is cheap like a seat on a bus is cheap.
P2P is more expensive like a Corporate Cab Taxi fare.

It's unfortunate and disappointing that they aren't closer together in price, but you can see the difference in cost structures quite clearly.

To torture the analogy more... You COULD share a taxi to the airport with your neighbour and you'd both get great service at a lower price :-)

As for what will happen with prices... I don't know. I personally think it's unlikely that there will be any changes to the input prices in the short term.

If you have a business need for fibre today, then go for it... As has been pointed out these were recently dropped dramatically to be in line with UFB pricing. It's conceivable that competition in the RSP space may drive prices down a little with UFB P2P availability... But that's a total unknown - there's also a chance that the extra investment may mean prices through RSPs are higher than today... Again a guess, but not an impossibility.

Cheers -N


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  Reply # 593516 11-Mar-2012 13:28 Send private message

networkn: I guess what I was trying to achieve, what determining what the basic costs were, to determine if what I am being quoted by my RSP is correct.

It can often be difficult to tell what you're actually paying for. I recently got a quote from Telecom for fibre and it had what appears to be a very low installation fee, but a high monthly fee (with a 24-month term). I assume that the majority of the installation cost has actually been split over the 24 months and that the quoted installation fee is just a downpayment. But without a breakdown, I don't know how much the actual installation costs overall.



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  Reply # 593519 11-Mar-2012 13:46 Send private message

 

If you have a business need for fibre today, then go for it... As has been pointed out these were recently dropped dramatically to be in line with UFB pricing. It's conceivable that competition in the RSP space may drive prices down a little with UFB P2P availability... But that's a total unknown - there's also a chance that the extra investment may mean prices through RSPs are higher than today... Again a guess, but not an impossibility.

Cheers -N



I guess the problem is that I don't see the prices that have been dramatically reduced, bringing the prices in line with UFB (At least the prices offered by Orcon etc. Since they are such different services (Shared vs P2P) I am not sure how they are comparing them, to decide what  the in line price is. 

It's moot I guess since I can't control the pricing, but frustrating non the less.

Cheers 

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  Reply # 593525 11-Mar-2012 13:54 Send private message

networkn:
 

If you have a business need for fibre today, then go for it... As has been pointed out these were recently dropped dramatically to be in line with UFB pricing. It's conceivable that competition in the RSP space may drive prices down a little with UFB P2P availability... But that's a total unknown - there's also a chance that the extra investment may mean prices through RSPs are higher than today... Again a guess, but not an impossibility.

Cheers -N



I guess the problem is that I don't see the prices that have been dramatically reduced, bringing the prices in line with UFB (At least the prices offered by Orcon etc. Since they are such different services (Shared vs P2P) I am not sure how they are comparing them, to decide what  the in line price is. 

It's moot I guess since I can't control the pricing, but frustrating non the less.

Cheers 


Don't say "UFB prices" when you mean "P2P pricing"... UFB is made up of many different service options sith different pricing. It's simply not fair and misleading to compare the lowest possible UFB pricing option with a higher class business service.

Unless I have missed something, Orcon haven't published anything yet except for UFB GPON pricing - using Bitstream services... I suspect that based on the pricing, the Orcon 'Business' UFB pricing (100/50mbps) is still using a GPON access method

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 593539 11-Mar-2012 14:42 Send private message

Ah ok, and that clarifies the misunderstanding. I had understood there was just UFB pricing, and it was a set of guidelines on price for a specific set number of connections and data plans. I wasn't aware that UFB had P2P Equivalent products, since there has been nothing mentioned at that point about it. I think it's a fair enough misunderstanding given the lack of information.

When Chorus surrendered it's existing Fibre network to allow that to be used at reduced prices in line with "UFB pricing", I think most people would have assumed they would see the existing network prices being in line with the business plans offered by Orcon and WXC to date.

I guess we just need to wait and see what other options become available.

Is it your understanding that if you get a 100/50 plan through Orcon business, it will be based on GPON potentially with only a guaranteed speed of 2.5Mbps?

Cheers

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  Reply # 593543 11-Mar-2012 14:49 Send private message

networkn: Ah ok, and that clarifies the misunderstanding. I had understood there was just UFB pricing, and it was a set of guidelines on price for a specific set number of connections and data plans. I wasn't aware that UFB had P2P Equivalent products, since there has been nothing mentioned at that point about it. I think it's a fair enough misunderstanding given the lack of information.

When Chorus surrendered it's existing Fibre network to allow that to be used at reduced prices in line with "UFB pricing", I think most people would have assumed they would see the existing network prices being in line with the business plans offered by Orcon and WXC to date.

I guess we just need to wait and see what other options become available.

Is it your understanding that if you get a 100/50 plan through Orcon business, it will be based on GPON potentially with only a guaranteed speed of 2.5Mbps?

Cheers


Potentially yes... There is a Bitstream profile combination for 100/50mbps with 2.5CIR up and down. There's also a profile for 100/50mbps 10m CIR down and 2.5m CIR up. There are also options to purchase increased CIR in either (or both) upstream and downstream directions.

I have _NO IDEA_ what exactly Orcon have modelled their business UFB pricing on.

BVear in mind the 'guaranteed speed' is only from your ONT to the handover to your Retail Service Provider. As far as UFB goes, there's no requirement to even guarantee 2.5mbps to NZ websites. Now of course in the real world this won't be the case - but any performance guarantees outside the LFC network are solely based on an agreement between the end user and the retail service provider...

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 593554 11-Mar-2012 14:54 Send private message

I thought even ADSL2+ had higher minimums than that? Isn't the threshold 4Mbps down?

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  Reply # 593555 11-Mar-2012 14:55 Send private message

networkn:[snip]
When Chorus surrendered it's existing Fibre network to allow that to be used at reduced prices in line with "UFB pricing", I think most people would have assumed they would see the existing network prices being in line with the business plans offered by Orcon and WXC to date.
[snip]


"Most people" don't have a sufficient understanding of wholesale pricing inputs and how they relate to retail pricing - especially with a product that has historically only been used by larger companies or schools etc. I think it's naive to think that 'most people' would understand what business fibre pricing changes at the wholesale level mean.

On the other hand... The ISPs offering business fibre connections were able to quickly and accurately digest what the Chorus fibre pricing changes meant.

My point is, and I know this sounds like a broken record, customers should seek retail pricing from Retail Service Providers. There are so many pitfalls and so much domain specific knowledge required that end users trying to work out wholesale to retail pricing are very likely to end up with unrealistic expectations.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 593560 11-Mar-2012 14:57 Send private message

networkn: I thought even ADSL2+ had higher minimums than that? Isn't the threshold 4Mbps down?


No.

I'm sure someone is about to turn up and talk about 32kbps or 45kbps, or 75, or 100 kbps per user... But they're not a comparable metric for reasons I can't be bothered going into.

Certainly however there's no Chorus guarantees of 4mbps throughput... (I don't know what, if any, guarantees unbundled providers offer)

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 593562 11-Mar-2012 14:59 Send private message

Hi There!

Ok well thanks again for the information. I do have a better understanding now, but have no inclination to go into it any further. I have been talking to a Retail Provider, I was just trying to understand the structure a little more.

Cheers


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