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403 posts

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Topic # 101421 1-May-2012 16:08 Send private message

I have a Steinel IS360D Trio sensor on one corner of my house controlling a few of my outdoor lights. In it's manual, one of the wiring examples allowed for two switches: one for normal sensor operation, and one for manual override (just runs another line which bypasses the unit altogether and connects directly to the lights). I've wired it that way, and everything works fine.



Now I've just got a similar unit from Securimax 'Simx LHT0179', and I was wondering if I could do the same. The Steinel had a comprehensive manual, whilst the Simx has a miserable slip of paper with bugger-all information on it and no wiring diagrams.

Is it standard practice to put another switch and line to bypass these sensors for manual operation of the lights, or do the units have to be designed to allow it?

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  Reply # 617995 1-May-2012 17:43 Send private message

Oubadah: I have a Steinel IS360D Trio sensor on one corner of my house controlling a few of my outdoor lights. In it's manual, one of the wiring examples allowed for two switches: one for normal sensor operation, and one for manual override (just runs another line which bypasses the unit altogether and connects directly to the lights). I've wired it that way, and everything works fine.



Now I've just got a similar unit from Securimax 'Simx LHT0179', and I was wondering if I could do the same. The Steinel had a comprehensive manual, whilst the Simx has a miserable slip of paper with bugger-all information on it and no wiring diagrams.

Is it standard practice to put another switch and line to bypass these sensors for manual operation of the lights, or do the units have to be designed to allow it?


it has been desgined to be able to put it in a manual bypass mode by the number of switch on/off's, but there is no reason why you can't wire an extra switch for manual bypass as the out out from security lights is typically relay driven.





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  Reply # 618012 1-May-2012 18:37 Send private message

gregmcc:
it has been desgined to be able to put it in a manual bypass mode by the number of switch on/off's, but there is no reason why you can't wire an extra switch for manual bypass as the out out from security lights is typically relay driven.


What has, the Simx? How do you know? I tried pulsing it, but haven't been able to get it to stay on, and it says nothing about pulsing in the manual.

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  Reply # 618030 1-May-2012 19:20 Send private message

Oubadah:
gregmcc:
it has been desgined to be able to put it in a manual bypass mode by the number of switch on/off's, but there is no reason why you can't wire an extra switch for manual bypass as the out out from security lights is typically relay driven.


What has, the Simx? How do you know? I tried pulsing it, but haven't been able to get it to stay on, and it says nothing about pulsing in the manual.


1x off/on=sensor control
2x off/on=manual control
3x off/on=time control

I have 2 of them and installed at many of them so I have a reasonable working knowledge of them



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  Reply # 618067 1-May-2012 20:14 Send private message

gregmcc:
Oubadah:
gregmcc:
it has been desgined to be able to put it in a manual bypass mode by the number of switch on/off's, but there is no reason why you can't wire an extra switch for manual bypass as the out out from security lights is typically relay driven.


What has, the Simx? How do you know? I tried pulsing it, but haven't been able to get it to stay on, and it says nothing about pulsing in the manual.


1x off/on=sensor control
2x off/on=manual control
3x off/on=time control

I have 2 of them and installed at many of them so I have a reasonable working knowledge of them


So it has to be on before you do the off/on cycles?

It has a warm up (self calibration?) period of around 30-40 seconds when you first turn it on, when the red LED in the unit is flashing continuously and the lights are being driven. Then the LED stops flashing and the lights go out, and the unit goes into normal sensing mode. At what point in time must I be flicking the switch?

On a side note, I reckon the 'range' specification of "22m" on the Securimax site was a bit misleading. You would normally expect 'range' to be in reference to the max sensing distance from the sensor itself (this being a 360 degree sensor, the radius). But it turns out that by 22m they are referring to the overall diameter of it's sensing pool, so the range actually comes to 11 meters at best.

With this thing at max sensitivity, it's covering barely half of the area I need but it's way too sensitive to minor movement. I tried it during the day, and it was going off every five minutes mostly due to birds. Then I tested it with a cat at night, and that set it off easily. All in all, the Steinel seems to be the better unit, but still with a pretty miserable range

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  Reply # 618080 1-May-2012 20:42 Send private message

Oubadah:
gregmcc:
Oubadah:
gregmcc:
it has been desgined to be able to put it in a manual bypass mode by the number of switch on/off's, but there is no reason why you can't wire an extra switch for manual bypass as the out out from security lights is typically relay driven.


What has, the Simx? How do you know? I tried pulsing it, but haven't been able to get it to stay on, and it says nothing about pulsing in the manual.


1x off/on=sensor control
2x off/on=manual control
3x off/on=time control

I have 2 of them and installed at many of them so I have a reasonable working knowledge of them


So it has to be on before you do the off/on cycles?


Yes


It has a warm up (self calibration?) period of around 30-40 seconds when you first turn it on, when the red LED in the unit is flashing continuously and the lights are being driven. Then the LED stops flashing and the lights go out, and the unit goes into normal sensing mode. At what point in time must I be flicking the switch?


Once the LED's are going going on and off in sequence (I call it knight rider mode)


On a side note, I reckon the 'range' specification of "22m" on the Securimax site was a bit misleading. You would normally expect 'range' to be in reference to the max sensing distance from the sensor itself (this being a 360 degree sensor, the radius). But it turns out that by 22m they are referring to the overall diameter of it's sensing pool, so the range actually comes to 11 meters at best.

With this thing at max sensitivity, it's covering barely half of the area I need but it's way too sensitive to minor movement. I tried it during the day, and it was going off every five minutes mostly due to birds. Then I tested it with a cat at night, and that set it off easily. All in all, the Steinel seems to be the better unit, but still with a pretty miserable range



11 meters isn't bad, you will be hard pushed to get a better sensor than that unless you want to spend big bucks, the other option is to install several security lights in parallel, so any sensor turns them all on, when they are all clear and times out they all shut off.


BTW, found the supplied bulbs to be crap, I usually install Marexim G9 Heavyduty bulbs instead.


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  Reply # 618085 1-May-2012 20:45 Send private message

As an electronic engineer I can tell you it is really hard getting beyond 10m range, especially outside, and keeping the cost down. The sensor is measuring body heat moving in front of a Fresnel lens and at 10m you need a very fine Fresnel to pick-up movement, and that causes other issues with dirt and with small animals at close range.

For a longer range you need a remote sensor.




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  Reply # 618094 1-May-2012 21:00 Send private message

gregmcc: Once the LED's are going going on and off in sequence (I call it knight rider mode)

BTW, found the supplied bulbs to be crap, I usually install Marexim G9 Heavyduty bulbs instead.


We're definitely talking about different units here :).

What I have is this stand alone model: http://www.securimax.co.nz/lighting/standalone_sensors/360deg_PIR_sensors.php

What you have sounds like a 'Trinity' sensor unit. I have one of those too, the twin spot version (but it failed the range test so it's in it's box). Thanks for the bulb recommendation, as I now have five Trinity stand alone ("slave") spots around the house.

Niel: As an electronic engineer I can tell you it is really hard getting beyond 10m range, especially outside, and keeping the cost down. The sensor is measuring body heat moving in front of a Fresnel lens and at 10m you need a very fine Fresnel to pick-up movement, and that causes other issues with dirt and with small animals at close range.

For a longer range you need a remote sensor.


Yes, my fallback plan was Jaycar's LA-5042 PIR/Microwave unit, which I would mount on a pole nearer the entrance of the property. Looks like that's my only option now, but it's going to be more expensive and complicated - the sensor and it's mount will be over $200 to start with, then I need suitable LV cable for underground (I have tons of cat6, but not gel-filled). Then the power supply, relay, timer system etc. is additional.

Back to my original question: So I should be able to install switch bypassing any stand alone sensor unit (as depicted in the diagram)? I was worried that if the switch that turns on the sensor unit and the switch going straight to the lights were enabled at once it might damage something

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  Reply # 618097 1-May-2012 21:23 Send private message

Sensor lights use relays for the switching which in effect is just a switch. You cannot damage it with parallel switching unless you screw up the wiring.




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  Reply # 618112 1-May-2012 21:47 Send private message

Niel: Sensor lights use relays for the switching which in effect is just a switch. You cannot damage it with parallel switching unless you screw up the wiring.


Yes, I think I was thinking too hard about it!

Side note: One thing I noticed in the Simx sensor's favor is that it seems to have greater range than the Steinel when detecting persons walking directly towards it.


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  Reply # 619725 4-May-2012 18:26 Send private message

Not all use a relay. I had a cheapie one which was triac based and no neutral connection to the head.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 619737 4-May-2012 18:39 Send private message

richms: Not all use a relay. I had a cheapie one which was triac based and no neutral connection to the head.


How is this different from a switch?

The point of a relay is either to keep the control voltage seperate from the switching voltage, like using a 12VDC signal to switch a 240VAC load

or if the switch isn't big enough, use a relay with a greater capicity.

In this case the control voltage is the same as the load voltage, and there is no reason the switch isn't big enough



--- just use a switch

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  Reply # 619741 4-May-2012 18:43 Send private message

Same as the no neutral connection remote control switches. If you bypass with a switch then no power for the sensor to run




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  Reply # 619774 4-May-2012 19:38 Send private message

richms: Not all use a relay. I had a cheapie one which was triac based and no neutral connection to the head.
  Okay, makes sense now, they require a leakage path through an incandescent/resistive light in order to power the sensor.  The sensor would charge a large capacitor for holding the triac on, slowly discharge the capacitor for the timer function.  So if you fit a CFL you do not have the resistive leakage so the sensor does not get power.  At some stage something somewhere will be charged just enough to switch on and cause a flicker.  I can't imagine any reputable light made like this since (except old stock) as some countries already banned incandescent lights and many Western countries already have a scheduled phase-out.




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  Reply # 619778 4-May-2012 19:41 Send private message

I think they delay turn on of the triac till they have enough power. Yeah a cfl on it would flickr slowly.




Richard rich.ms

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