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  Reply # 659292 20-Jul-2012 19:19 Send private message

wellygary:
Elpie: I'm after a nightstore heater and am having a heck of a time sourcing a new one. Does anyone know of retailers who stock them?



This electrician in Upper Hutt (Wellington ) claims he imports them.....
(although the website is a blast from the past) 

http://www.topsparky.co.nz/products.htm#Creda

http://www.topsparky.co.nz/index.htm


Cheers - I'll be contacting him. 

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  Reply # 659300 20-Jul-2012 19:45 Send private message

Where do you live? IMHO I would think that as long as the heat pump is sized correctly even in the worst spots of NZ it would easily beat the savings that a night store could achieve.
Note I did say correctly sized. Often heat pumps spend a lot of time defrosting because they are effectively undersized causing them to run at or near max load. We had this issue ourselves which has been solved by getting a larger unit which does not need to work so hard. It still does ice but only infrequently. We live in Wainui in Lower Hutt which tends to have high humidity as it is in a valley well away from the sea.

Otherwise as discussed in another thread gas seems to be another cheap option as long as you can use it for more then just heating.







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  Reply # 659326 20-Jul-2012 21:47 Send private message

Elpie:
ubergeeknz: Heat pumps are far more efficient at any rate, and the increased efficiency should well outweigh any difference in rate for night time power usage. ?IMO don't bother and just get a heat pump!


Heat pumps are inefficient and cost a bundle to run in my area of the country where humidity stays high year-round and heat pumps spent more time defrosting than heating. They are not good options in some areas of NZ.?

I am able to get cheaper off-peak power and as I work from home keeping heat around during the day is important. Nightstores are still a good heating option for people who are home all day. Costs compare favourably if you can get a low night tariff (as I can), see:?http://www.consumer.org.nz/reports/heating-options/fuel-prices-compared

Second-hand doesn't appeal as so many of them are old and would require an electrician to check out. The newer models are much more efficient in both their use of electricity and their heat output. They seem to be readily available in the South Island but this isn't much good to us in the North as shipping a heap of bricks is very expensive.?

They are bulky, look ugly, and are no use in households where people are out all day BUT are ideal in my house & situation and sure beat plug-in electric heaters.?




I think all regular heaters (apart from heat pumps) are efficient as one another, in that they all turn 1 kW of electricity into 1kW of heat. Even night store heaters.
If you are wanting good heat you may want to consider a wood burner which can work out cheaper to run and produce a heck of a lot more heat than any electric heater will produce. You could also look at pellet fires.

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  Reply # 659339 20-Jul-2012 22:32 Send private message

mattwnz:
timmmay: It's really difficult to get prices from electricy companies online, they really don't want to tell you prices.

However, I'll guess 25c/kwh daytime and 20c/kwh at night. That's a 20% savings, which isn't bad, but efficient heating with a heat pump will drop the effective cost to 8c/kwh of heat. The downside is the $3,000 up front cost, but it should last ten years.


The price difference used to be a lot better. As you probably lose around 20% of the energy that is stored in night store heaters anyway, there probably isn't any saving. Heatpumps have sort of replaced them as they are far more efficient.


We are on a night and day plan here in chch on genesis and get 20.45c day and 9.88c at night, so a significant savings can be made, However we just took out our nightstore and replaced it for a heat pump. because at the end of the day there was litte heat left




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  Reply # 659354 20-Jul-2012 23:07 Send private message

Shoes2468:
mattwnz:
timmmay: It's really difficult to get prices from electricy companies online, they really don't want to tell you prices.

However, I'll guess 25c/kwh daytime and 20c/kwh at night. That's a 20% savings, which isn't bad, but efficient heating with a heat pump will drop the effective cost to 8c/kwh of heat. The downside is the $3,000 up front cost, but it should last ten years.


The price difference used to be a lot better. As you probably lose around 20% of the energy that is stored in night store heaters anyway, there probably isn't any saving. Heatpumps have sort of replaced them as they are far more efficient.


We are on a night and day plan here in chch on genesis and get 20.45c day and 9.88c at night, so a?significant?savings can be made, However we just took out our nightstore and?replaced?it for a?heat pump. because at the end of the day there was litte heat left





The daily rate though can be higher on those plans that have different rates for day and night. The problem with them is if you have a warm day, you have already purchased the energy the night before, so you lose the energy you paid for, as you don't want a heater going on a warmer day.



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  Reply # 659398 21-Jul-2012 02:33 Send private message

mattwnz: 
The daily rate though can be higher on those plans that have different rates for day and night. The problem with them is if you have a warm day, you have already purchased the energy the night before, so you lose the energy you paid for, as you don't want a heater going on a warmer day.


That's assuming you haven't looked at the weather forecast and turned the nightstore off for that night ;) New nightstores have thermostats and on/off switches, unlike the old models. 



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  Reply # 659400 21-Jul-2012 02:43 Send private message

Nety: Where do you live? IMHO I would think that as long as the heat pump is sized correctly even in the worst spots of NZ it would easily beat the savings that a night store could achieve.
Note I did say correctly sized. Often heat pumps spend a lot of time defrosting because they are effectively undersized causing them to run at or near max load. We had this issue ourselves which has been solved by getting a larger unit which does not need to work so hard. It still does ice but only infrequently. We live in Wainui in Lower Hutt which tends to have high humidity as it is in a valley well away from the sea.

Otherwise as discussed in another thread gas seems to be another cheap option as long as you can use it for more then just heating.


I've got flued gas in the lounge and it works well for night time when that area of the house is being used. After speaking to several installers there's no way I will get a heat pump for this house.

At the moment, the temperature is 0.8C with 96% humidity. We reached dew point at 9pm so from 9pm on a heat pump would be icing up and turning the heat off to defrost. People I know around town that have them complain that they are regularly on and off all night. Right through winter here the humidity ranges from around 92% - 100% and dew point is usually between 1C and 3C. This means there is a severe build-up of ice on heat pumps. When they defrost they aren't heating and power consumption rises. 

I've done a lot of research on this and now just need to source a new nightstore. 

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  Reply # 659419 21-Jul-2012 08:46 Send private message

As pointed out in the Consumer article you linked to in the other thread once you get below dew point the air dries out and a heat pump starts working well again so it is not quite correct to say from 9pm on it will ice as that is only true if it stays on dew point, if the temperature continues to fall it will stop icing. Re other people having icing issues in your area I think a few years ago when heat pumps first started becoming popular in domestic installs a lot of professional installers under estimated the icing issue and undersized the heat pumps they installed. Certainly this happened to us for our first heatpump.
Anyway sounds like you have done your research so I will shut up and stop trying to shove heatpumps at you Embarassed







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  Reply # 659435 21-Jul-2012 09:26 Send private message

Also consider the difference between a cheap traditional on-off heat pump and a modern inverter variable drive heat pump. When asking neighbours about performance, make sure they have an inverter heat pump ans also that it is a good brand name which manages the icing up and defrosting better. The location of the outside unit also makes a difference. I've used a window mount unit with lots of problems until I moved it to a window that is sheltered with a porch and awning.

But yes, that high humidity will certainly cause problems for any heat pump. The problems just vary depending on the design of the heat pump.

A few days during last week in Auckland we had solid, hard ice on our cars. Hose down eventually removed it, but when I closed the tap and came back to the car it had iced up again so had to hose down a second time. I wonder how a heat pump would have coped with that. But here is happens only a few days a year.




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  Reply # 659484 21-Jul-2012 11:50 Send private message

I'd definitely go the heat pump route (or, better yet, full central heating) somewhere else, just not here. Basically, the decision came down to these options: 
1) Ignore the professional advice & take a chance on a heat pump that would cost a few thousand dollars, or...
2) Find a retailer who stocks/can get in a nightstore heater. These are generally around $200'ish plus installation (wiring to the existing, new off-peak meter). 
Given that the flued gas heater works well for nighttime heating where we need it, the nightstore heating choice is pretty much a no-brainer. 

It's frustrating though that there are heaps of people selling them in the South Island and nobody yet discovered selling them in the North.

FWIW, for anyone also looking into these - be careful - North Island retailers seem to be so out of touch with what a nightstore is that some of them think that panel heaters are the same thing. A nightstore *can* be a panel heating design but turn on/turn off/plug into normal power point panel heaters aren't nightstores. 

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  Reply # 659502 21-Jul-2012 12:09 Send private message

If heat pumps aren't an option is there a reason you haven't looked at a second flued gas heater or gas central heating? It's only economical if you have reticulated gas. Obviously it's a heat pump+ level investment though.

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  Reply # 659574 21-Jul-2012 15:25 Send private message

Elpie:

I've done a lot of research on this and now just need to source a new nightstore. 


I bought mine from Matertrade in Mairangi Bay about 14 years ago and it works very well. They are wholesale and retail. As far as I know they still have them.
Heat pumps can be very problematical. When I used to get to work around 6am in the winter (in Rotorua) and the temp was near or below freezing I always found the coils frozen solid and no heat output. Problem persisted even after upgrades and new equipment. Hosing the coils down in below zero temps and fog is no fun and only lasted about 30 mins at best. Used to keep two fan heaters available for those mornings.


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