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  Reply # 963666 9-Jan-2014 08:32 Send private message

My roof's pretty high up, won't be able to see much of it from the ground.

I'll ask about the swarf, dents/scratches, and the building paper material and laying technique, thanks. Generally I'm happy to pay for good quality materials. Not sure he'll like being questioned but oh well if he doesn't I'll hire someone else.




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  Reply # 963723 9-Jan-2014 10:20 Send private message

Sweet, glad I was able to help.

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  Reply # 963757 9-Jan-2014 11:05 Send private message

mailmarshall: Have found that the thicker gauge feels bit more quieter when it rains heavily - not sure if this is scientific or just a feeling.


RickW: ...
I need to do my roof and I'm going to go for 0.55 gage endura because I know that I will get close to 50 years out of it if cared for correctly. Also if you can afford it I highly recommend Cover tech 407 or equivalent paper instead of the bitumen based paper as it will not deteriorate and will last as long as the roof and will lead to a lot less leaks in the years ahead.

The main things to look for is there are no scratches on the sheets after they have been installed as they will rust out quickly, even if touch up (paint) is used. Not to mention touch up will discolour a lot more quickly than the iron. Even little dents will eventually become holes/splits. Imagine bending metal back and forth until it breaks this is what happens in the sun when the sheets expand and contract and a dent is the weakest point so will bend. Scratched or dented sheets really need to be replaced. Make sure the sheets are cut with gilbows or reds or greens and not a grinder. And check that the washers on the screws are roughly 2/3 compressed and none split and coming out the side of the screw head. And a absolute must is the roof and gutter MUST be blown off every day to ensure no swarf is left on the iron and better yet hose the roof off after the roofers have left each day. Insure the top of the sheets awe "turned up" which is the low/pan of the sheet being folded up at a 90 degree angle to the sheet to insure that water that will get under the hips/ridges in wind/rain cannot get over and therefor under the sheets.


We have regretted not having advice as good as this . The cumulative difference is easily visible 20 years on even after repainting. But not cleaning up after our builders was not as bad as forgoing the thicker gauge:
  • thicker is noticeably quieter when it rains and when someone walks around on on it
  • thicker doesn't dent as easily
  • thicker extends the life of the roof by many years
On that last point, I've observed that a well maintained roof generally lasts until it corrodes from below. I've been helping friends and family extend the life of their roofs by replacing fixings etc and all of them are corroding from underneath not from above. The worst are where a bathroom has been vented into the ceiling cavity or the ventilation duct has leaked. The benefit of buying a thicker gauge, e.g. from .40mm to .55mm, is more than an additional 38% thickness. If the roof starts failing at an average of say .20 then the extra .15 thickness effectively means a 75% improvement which is twice the benefit and that translates to a lot of extra durability and life.

PS We also decided we should have gone for corrugated because of the additional strength it provides. Our fancy profile looks good but dents too easily and is more difficult to repaint.

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  Reply # 963850 9-Jan-2014 13:25 Send private message

Hammerer:
mailmarshall: Have found that the thicker gauge feels bit more quieter when it rains heavily - not sure if this is scientific or just a feeling.


RickW: ...
I need to do my roof and I'm going to go for 0.55 gage endura because I know that I will get close to 50 years out of it if cared for correctly. Also if you can afford it I highly recommend Cover tech 407 or equivalent paper instead of the bitumen based paper as it will not deteriorate and will last as long as the roof and will lead to a lot less leaks in the years ahead.

The main things to look for is there are no scratches on the sheets after they have been installed as they will rust out quickly, even if touch up (paint) is used. Not to mention touch up will discolour a lot more quickly than the iron. Even little dents will eventually become holes/splits. Imagine bending metal back and forth until it breaks this is what happens in the sun when the sheets expand and contract and a dent is the weakest point so will bend. Scratched or dented sheets really need to be replaced. Make sure the sheets are cut with gilbows or reds or greens and not a grinder. And check that the washers on the screws are roughly 2/3 compressed and none split and coming out the side of the screw head. And a absolute must is the roof and gutter MUST be blown off every day to ensure no swarf is left on the iron and better yet hose the roof off after the roofers have left each day. Insure the top of the sheets awe "turned up" which is the low/pan of the sheet being folded up at a 90 degree angle to the sheet to insure that water that will get under the hips/ridges in wind/rain cannot get over and therefor under the sheets.


We have regretted not having advice as good as this . The cumulative difference is easily visible 20 years on even after repainting. But not cleaning up after our builders was not as bad as forgoing the thicker gauge:


  • thicker is noticeably quieter when it rains and when someone walks around on on it

  • thicker doesn't dent as easily

  • thicker extends the life of the roof by many years


On that last point, I've observed that a well maintained roof generally lasts until it corrodes from below. I've been helping friends and family extend the life of their roofs by replacing fixings etc and all of them are corroding from underneath not from above. The worst are where a bathroom has been vented into the ceiling cavity or the ventilation duct has leaked. The benefit of buying a thicker gauge, e.g. from .40mm to .55mm, is more than an additional 38% thickness. If the roof starts failing at an average of say .20 then the extra .15 thickness effectively means a 75% improvement which is twice the benefit and that translates to a lot of extra durability and life.

PS We also decided we should have gone for corrugated because of the additional strength it provides. Our fancy profile looks good but dents too easily and is more difficult to repaint.


I can honestly say no one has regretted getting 55, personally I think that the biggest difference to customers is the noise in rain but especially in the wind, as the iron is thicker it has a lot less movement there for whistles less. Right I think that's more than enough out of me. :-)



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  Reply # 963921 9-Jan-2014 15:06 Send private message

I'll definitely ask about the 407 paper, but I'm in two minds about 0.55 gauge metal. It's a couple of grand extra, which isn't a huge deal, but my roofer said it's unnecessary and gives a 25 year guarantee on the 0.4 metal. If I have to replace the roof in 25 years that's not really a problem.

We have masses of insulation in the ceiling and never hear the rain or wind. I'm thinking of going with 0.4 at this stage.




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  Reply # 963975 9-Jan-2014 16:23 Send private message

My very patient roofer guy suggested 403 instead of 407 lining. He said it was cheaper but still better than the standard product, and that 407 is probably overkill. He also said the standard lining is almost always still intact if they remove a 50 year old roof. He wasn't immediately sure of the difference between 403 and 407 off the top of his head, caught him while we was driving.

He also said in Wellington they lay the paper vertically, which is approved by Branz and other places. Something to do with not having to take the whole side of the house off to do it, and being easier in the wind. I do wonder if wind blown rain may get in easier, but it's like that now and we've never had a problem.




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  Reply # 964029 9-Jan-2014 18:24 Send private message

The roofer called around for a chat. My roof is 1/2 to 3/4 sarked (hit and miss he called it), so the thicker metal is apparently not required. He said he'd use 0.4 if it was his house.

He talked about the underlay for a few minutes, about condensation, water coming through, absorbency, moisture going through things, how it affects rust, etc. I said if money was no object what underlay would you use, he said the standard black one. So I guess that's good enough for me, especially given the 7 year labour warranty and the 25 year materials warranty.




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  Reply # 964086 9-Jan-2014 19:40 Send private message

What profile are you getting? If normal corrugated, then the thinner gauge is probably ok. I would expect that you would only need the thicker guage if you were using a profile that is known to 'can', such as a trough like profile.
Regarding life, I would expect the life to be based on the actual paint coating, so when the colour steel needs painting in the future, you would repaint it, so it shouldn't even get down to the zinc coating. The prepainted finish though will always be far superior to a hand painted / sprayed roof post installation. If you are collecting potable water off it, I have heard of someone replacing it when it needed painting, as they didn't what paint tainted water, which you shouldn't get with baked on paint coatings. But I would expect a prepainted baked on coating to last 20 years before it needs painting again, as long as it is well maintained and cleaned regularly (but who does this).



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  Reply # 964122 9-Jan-2014 20:42 Send private message

Yep normal corrugated. I clean the house but never the roof, but if it's recommended I can get someone in - how often are you meant to do that? What do they do, just give it a going over with a brush and soap, water blast, etc?




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  Reply # 974174 25-Jan-2014 17:36 Send private message

The roof has been done, I went up for a look around. In general it looks like a neat tidy job. There are at least a dozen scratches that have scratched through far enough to see silver, but I don't know if that's a problem. It looks like touch up paint was used as well. Can someone in the know have a quick look and let me know what they think?

Touch up paint








Scratches















General photos


Wondered about the silver screws, most are painted




There are a number of screws that don't seem to be fully screwed down







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  Reply # 974189 25-Jan-2014 17:41 Send private message

Not sure on the scratches - probably depends if the colour layer provides any protection, or if it is just cosmetic.

The screws however need to be tighter so that the washer underneath compresses to form a good seal otherwise you will get a leak in the rain.

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  Reply # 974206 25-Jan-2014 17:59 Send private message

Hi timmmay,

The scratched sheets need to be replaced. The screws need to be wound down. The hip that you took a picture of with the silver screws should not have any fixings there as that no longer complies with the building code. Joins in hips/ridges cannot be joint by anything other than silicon which allows the two pieces to move independently of one another, otherwise you will have ridging rippling/deforming in changes of temperature which will read to screws snapping.

Cheers
Rick



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  Reply # 974211 25-Jan-2014 18:16 Send private message

Rick, thanks for that, much appreciated. That will mean around 8 very large sheets of steel replaced, probably 1/4 of the roof, which I'm fairly sure the roofer will resist as it will cost him in both time and money. Can you give me a bit more background, maybe a reference to any documentation you know about that says when sheets should be replaced? Any references or thoughts regarding painting over scratches?

Also the fixings, silver screws, and building code bit, any more details or references you can give me?

If you happen to be in Wellington I'd be happy to pay you to have a look and write a report, if you're interested. Though I may be best showing the roofing company and asking their opinion.

Are you a working qualified builder, LBP or anything? It's just good to be able to say "the advice I was given by a person with this qualification is xyz".




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  Reply # 974265 25-Jan-2014 19:46 One person supports this post Send private message

That is not a good job.

All scratched sheets need replacing.

The hip to ridge junction requires all new flashings. There should be a soft edge roll flashing to cover the join where the two hips meet the ridge rather than that mess.

The lap on gasket sealed joints should be 50mm minimum.

The gasket screws don't look like the others, basic galv rather than class 4.

They have some re-work to do. Do not settle for that.



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  Reply # 974270 25-Jan-2014 20:01 Send private message

Thanks Gazbo. I don't really understand many of your terms. Any chance you can put out in terms an average person can understand? Or what I can copy and paste to the roofer?

There are storms coming, should it be ok for now? I've paid 50% but won't be paying the balance until satisfied the job has been done to a good standard. I don't expect perfect, just to professional standards.




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