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  Reply # 969343 18-Jan-2014 13:34 Send private message

richrdh18: Led's are the way to go.  Yes they are more expensive but to reduce the huge one off cost, I purchased a couple each week and after a few months, the whole house is done.  I went for the Philips warm white bulbs as a replacement for R80 down lights bulbs.  I think we are saving approx. $40 per month on our power bill now, so these would have paid themselves off in under a year. 

Now I don't mind if the kids leave the lights on


There isn't a huge cost difference in the running costs between CFL bulbs and LED, so over a bulb lifetime, CFLs maybe be slightly cheaper in the long run, depending on what the LEDs cost. However the other benefits of LED make them a far better choice IMO, including better quality light, and instant on.

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  Reply # 969367 18-Jan-2014 14:13 Send private message

How much do the Philips 100W equivalents cost, and where do you get them?




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  Reply # 969431 18-Jan-2014 17:58 Send private message

Last time I saw the Philips 100W equivalent at Pack & Save, Countdown, and I think Bunnings. Price was about $25. Was a while ago when people complained about a lack of BC and cold white.

The Philips bulbs are great, but their body is too thick for my recessed fittings. Actually they claim not suitable for enclosed fittings like recessed or tight pendants because the (little bit of) heat cannot escape. This is printed on the package.

So instead I went for 14W dedicated LED fittings at $55 each from Quality LED Lighting in Wellington. I've trialled one older model 12W fitting from the same manufacturer and loved it. It is like a recessed fitting, but the LEDs are at ceiling level so you get a very good almost 180 degree light spread. The dedicated fitting is IC-F rated and also completely plugs the holes in my ceiling. I have ordered the exact colour temperature I want (4000k daylight) and expect delivery in 3 weeks. If you are happy with 3300k then the guy has local stock, otherwise special order. He has a higher power fitting, but I did not want to cut larger holes in the ceiling of my recently new-built home and 8x 14W should be enough for my living space ;-).

When I started with 8W Viribright bulbs at $18 each the payback for 5h use per day was about 5-6 months compared to incandescent, and I refused to use CCFL except in the kitchen pendants where I've started with halogen globes until I've found high power CCFL which are acceptable brightness when they are cold. Still searching for LEDs that will do the job, probably have to make my own.




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  Reply # 969432 18-Jan-2014 18:00 Send private message

jeffnz: Why would people still use CFL's?

Because they represent good value, and save you $$$
I know they save power but the danger from them seems far greater.


Pretty much we could use the same argument against petrol
(Perhaps more so with diesel) and we use a lot off that every day, everywhere.





  • Mercury vapour. US authorities don’t recommend use in children’s rooms or over carpeted areas because of toxic hazard

  • Damage to houses. Despite NZ government assurances, the latest scientific tests in the US prove the mercury in one broken bulb can irreparably contaminate a carpet. In the US insurance companies are refusing to cover the cost of replacing carpets

  • Fire risk. It is normal for CFL bulbs to physically burn up at the end of their natural life. Although rare, in some cases this has led to house fires

  • Toxic smoke. The burnt plastic and gases emitted when lights burn out are carcinogenic

  • Lifespan. Although many bulbs claim 6,000 hours (five years’ use) or greater, this is based on ideal laboratory conditions. Some bulbs have died within 12 months in household use

  • RF Interference. Household CFLs are widely known to cause interference to wireless networks, electronic appliances, hot water cylinders and cordless phones

  • Power disruptions. NZ Government briefing papers disclose major concerns that CFLs could cause regular widespread power outages because of a peculiar side-effect known as harmonic distortion

  • Cost of disposal. Some US states now require homeowners to drive old CFL bulbs to a special recycling centre to avoid contaminating the environment


source

I have no idea about whether the site is reputable but a quick google search shows the points are pretty widespread

Scientificamerican

and even from the epa on how to clean them up, surely this isn't just some CT or should I get my tin foil hat out?



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  Reply # 969436 18-Jan-2014 18:53 Send private message

Niel: Last time I saw the Philips 100W equivalent at Pack & Save, Countdown, and I think Bunnings. Price was about $25. Was a while ago when people complained about a lack of BC and cold white.

The Philips bulbs are great, but their body is too thick for my recessed fittings. Actually they claim not suitable for enclosed fittings like recessed or tight pendants because the (little bit of) heat cannot escape. This is printed on the package.

So instead I went for 14W dedicated LED fittings at $55 each from Quality LED Lighting in Wellington. I've trialled one older model 12W fitting from the same manufacturer and loved it. It is like a recessed fitting, but the LEDs are at ceiling level so you get a very good almost 180 degree light spread. The dedicated fitting is IC-F rated and also completely plugs the holes in my ceiling. I have ordered the exact colour temperature I want (4000k daylight) and expect delivery in 3 weeks. If you are happy with 3300k then the guy has local stock, otherwise special order. He has a higher power fitting, but I did not want to cut larger holes in the ceiling of my recently new-built home and 8x 14W should be enough for my living space ;-).

When I started with 8W Viribright bulbs at $18 each the payback for 5h use per day was about 5-6 months compared to incandescent, and I refused to use CCFL except in the kitchen pendants where I've started with halogen globes until I've found high power CCFL which are acceptable brightness when they are cold. Still searching for LEDs that will do the job, probably have to make my own.


Not sure about the 100W ones, as I have never seen them for sale. However the 75 watt ones do show that they can be used in downlighters but require a minimum clearance. But it also shows they can't beused in enclosed fittings, which I presume means things like button lights . But the same thing probably applies to CFLs. 
The 75 watt philips should be more than enough for most downlighters, and  I have some 60 watt eq ones, and they are as bright as the 75 watt eq CFLs. I have also found the panasonic ones are good, and I feel produce a nicer light . The philips ones I feel have a slight blue tinge. They do have both daylight and warm white options and both B22 and E27 fittings. The last 75watt philips one I got was $25 from pacnsave.
When I was in harvey norman, they had 75watt panasonic LEDS for $20 each on sale reduced from $30 which isn't bad. Personally I am into using conventional universal bulb fittings, as you will always be able to get replacement bulbs for them. 

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Reply # 969446 18-Jan-2014 19:39 Send private message

Recently completed the wash up of the earth quake repairs and because of new gib board going up decided to replace the downlights in the bathroom and toilet.

I bought four NewZealand sourced Halcyon 10 watt LED with glass covers for the bathroom and two 10 watt LED downlights for the toilet. The two for the toilet just looked like the 50w TH Diachroic type that has been used for years. I got them from the electrical wholesaler were I used to work and the cost over the counter would be round $65 to $ 70 each c/w the driver. So you can see they are not cheap to buy initially but at 10w they won't cost much to run.

Also I bought to try out a 15w LED ES R80 lamp that is a direct replacement for the 100w ES R80 incandescent lamps used in 1000's of downlights in NZ. Again this was not a cheap cost at $30 over the counter at a W/saler but at 15 watt  and rated at 15000 hours works out ok over a long period. The lamp turns on almost immediately but seems to take 2 to 3 seconds to stabilize and the ceiling is slightly darker as there is not so much sideways spill light from the sides of the lamp.

We have a lot of dimmers in our house that work fine on TH and Incandescent lamps but a lot of LED lamps are not dimmable so it can be limiting were you can place them if you want mood lighting.

I was a bit worried about whether there would be enough light out put but there is tons of light and of a good colour temperature.

Also slightly less in savings but worth a look if you have TH lamps in downlights is that Osram have a 35watt lamp called IRC that is equal in lumins output to a 50w and a 50watt version that is equal to 65w  output. However again nothing for free as a std lamp at the supermarket is about $4 and The IRC type is W/saler only at about $15. Phillips have an equal range.

An exercise to do is list down all the light fittings that could have energy lamps in them. List the wattage of each fitting. Add the lot up to get total KW's and X by the unit cost. That equals running cost per hour. Then list wattage of all the energy saving lamps that could be utilized, add them up and again x by the unit cost and see how big the savings would be. Then you would have to add up all the cost of the purchace of new lamps. In a new instalation  I would not hesitate to use a low energy fitting,LED or equal but I would have to look very carefully into spending huge amounts of money if big savings were not there. This exercise is only what one of those door to door sales people would do except you are under no preasure from you own calculations !!



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  Reply # 969475 18-Jan-2014 20:44 Send private message

Camden:
We have a lot of dimmers in our house that work fine on TH and Incandescent lamps but a lot of LED lamps are not dimmable so it can be limiting were you can place them if you want mood lighting.

The drivers that come with Quality LED Lighting are designed for dimming.  I have not tested it yet, but claims linear dimming.

I've also found the "75W equivalent" LED bulbs are 100W equivalent when used in a down light fitting, because a glass (and CCFL) bulb wastes a lot of light where the reflector does not work.  With my non-IC fittings (which are being replaced) glass bulbs spill a lot into the ceiling and LED bulbs spill virtually nothing.




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  Reply # 970294 20-Jan-2014 21:00 One person supports this post Send private message

Hi Mike,

I am Tom (founder) from Energy Mad and have read your question with interest and am happy to answer your questions and any others. 

Mike yes that would have been an Energy Mad representative that would have approached you.  We have found that the best way to explain the benefits of changing a households downlights with all of its associated benefits is best done face to face.  We have tried retail, internet, print and newspaper advertising and it just doesn't work as well as talking directly with the customer.  The length of time an Ecobulb lasts has been tested extensively to NZ and international standards where Ecobulbs are switched on and off every 3 hrs for 20,000 plus hrs.  The Ecobulb in the downlight we sell is tested and lasts for 10,000hrs on average and is replaceable.  There are technical issues with LED's and also we have found the price prohibitively expensive at the moment, however the price is coming down.  We want to give consumers a good quality product at a reasonable price and at the moment we believe our product is the best.  We offer a guarantee of 2 years for residential applications.

To answer some of the other questions that came up:
CFL's and LEDs have similar efficacy so will save you similar amounts in electricity savings when replacing Halogens and R080 downlights.
Some of the LED downlight brands I have tried are in excess of $150 per downlight plus installation of an electrician.
Even though some LED downlights are IC rated ie one can place insulation over the top, be careful as LED's life is very reliant on them not getting too hot and this may be an issue in some brands where the life time claims are not achievable due to over heating.

Cheers

Tom Mackenzie

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  Reply # 971949 21-Jan-2014 21:45 Send private message

mattwnz:
Just wondering what you replaced your downlights with? Pendants, buttons? You can now get IC downlights which don't have the same problems with creating big uninsulated areas in the ceiling, and some of these integrated LED/fittings are also IC, but some aren't. I wouldn't get the ones which aren't, or are only CA. IC is the way to go in terms of insualtion. You can also get an IC downlighter fitting for B22 and E27 CFL and LED bulbs, and I have checked with the manufacturer to make sure that the philips LEDs will be ok in them, and you are talking well under the $100 for the fitting + bulb.


Replaced with a pendant - 3 bulb suspended 'bowl'. Looks ok in our character house.
Niel (in this thread) finally wore me down with regard to UV, and now fairly bright LED bulbs are available, so I buy LED bulbs rather than CFLs now. Previously I didn't bother because LED 'bulbs' were too dim. LEDs still can't beat a Philips Tornado 1550 lumen CFL though.

For a new build, 0-10V or DALI dimming should be used for LED fittings. Traditional 'chopper' dimmers is an awful way to control electronic lighting such as CFLs or LEDs.

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  Reply # 974268 25-Jan-2014 19:58 Send private message

Till there is a $4 replacement for the 24 watt spiral CFL's I will still have a lot of them around the place.

Problem is that its almost always cool white and warm white, no actual white 4000-5000k lamps anywhere, in all types of lamps.

Till LED gets the energy density up there with the small CFL's I dont think they will replace everything, but the 12 watt philips are quite good in downlights but have slightly less spill than a CFL does since it sits higher in the fitting than a CFL or incandesent, so the tops of the walls look dimmer so the whole room looks dimmer.

Nothing LED will replace the 65 and 105w not so compact CFL's I have in the workspace yet - there are 50 watt and higher high bay lights, but I need something with a 360 degree spread for in rice paper shades or similar to replace there.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 974269 25-Jan-2014 19:59 Send private message

Oh, and as for the ecobulbs, saw them at the homeshow, wouldnt give me an upfront cost per fitting or installation instead wanting to waste my time with a consultation and I assume constant pestering like HRV so I didnt go for it. Really dont like the idea of a CFL integrated into the fitting since they are a dead technology, and they had no dimming support.




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  Reply # 974747 26-Jan-2014 19:05 Send private message

I have 6x chrome bezel EcoBulbs for free to a good home. The boxes are a bit rough as I got them many years ago free at Hamilton Field Days. Never used, but free to whoever wants it. Just pay postage or pick-up from East Auckland.

Our 3x pendants in the kitchen has 23W Philips CCFL, otherwise I'm using only LEDs. Should have 10x 14W fittings in about 2-3 weeks, picked my colour as 4000k, and cost $55 each with NZ certification. I'll post photos in a few weeks. The one sample I have does spill slightly on the ceiling so it does not look dark.




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