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147 posts

Master Geek
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Flip NZ

  Reply # 723045 26-Nov-2012 13:36 Send private message

In response to Ragnor



Your traffic management needs to be far most sophisticated than that

Yes planning to be more sophisticated than that, but in essence p2p would be the only thing we'd limit per se.



$90-130 depending level of congestion as per other naked unlimited/unmetered plans Slingshot ($90), Orcon ($99), Maxnet ($124)

Thought as much, and we'll be in this range if not cheaper.



Lack of transparency, take a leaf out of what good ISP's are doing overseas

Agreed. Playing with the idea of real-time stats for our call centre and network. Also I'm around and will be in the future on these forums and Flip's if anyone wants to ask the hard questions.

Our traffic management policy will be very clear (I'll be writing it). Last thing we need is a whole lot of complaints. Hence the idea of simply saying, p2p is limited, everything else isn't. 

All this makes me think 'Unmetered' has a ring to it as it is much more upfront and doesnt attract people who want to download the internet.




flip.co.nz



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

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Flip NZ

  Reply # 723186 26-Nov-2012 17:22 Send private message

In response to NonprayingMantis


Unless you are going to do it for around $50-60 total (which I doubt) then it would totally go against your entire brand positioning of being extremley cheap. Let Slingshot do their thing and you do yours. Trying to do big caps and unlimited is just going to confuse the hell out of people. 

I tend to disagree. Flip's not just about cheap entry level - we've got large(ish) data packs and unlimited is the next evolution. While I'm still working out the details, the way it's positioned, the price and the how it behaves will be about two things:

1. Saving cash
2. Bill security

Both elements are cornerstones of the Flip brand.

you are owned by slingshot (yes, you have separate management etc etc) so given the only other unlimited provider of any scale is Orcon, then half, or more (probably more like 60-70% given relative sizes of Orcon and Slingshot), of your customers will come from slingshot - eating your own lunch.

To clarify: owned by CallPlus, who owns Slingshot and Flip :)

I don't believe so because of my previous answer. Yes there will be some cannibalisation, but small considering our p2p limiting idea. You've also got to consider what pricing can do to a market - a whole lot of people who used to pay per GB might like the idea more if the price is right.




flip.co.nz



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

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Flip NZ

  Reply # 723193 26-Nov-2012 17:32 Send private message

Further from NonprayingMantis

One way that might work for you is to attract a different kind of unlimited customer. 
Dont go for the ones who want to use heaps of data who are currently on Slingshot, orcon, or 500GB telecom plans. Instead, go for the ones who only want to use a little bit 5-20GB)but are scared of hitting caps. 
the way you woudl do it would be to offer an 'unlimited' plan (call it something else though), but only offer low speeds (say, 1-2Mbps) and totally block P2P. That's fast enough to do web browsing, emails, low res youtube and most other stuff on the web etc etc but not so fast it is going to cost you a fortune in bandwidth or even be attractive to the vampires on Slingshot and Orcon right now. That way, you can still price it pretty keenly at, say, $60 including landline. 
you won't blow out your costs and you also won't cannibalise your own group's customers. win-win
 

This is kind the path I'm looking at, but as soon as you start adding more restrictions (speed and p2p) suddenly it becomes hard to communicate effectively - both from a marketing and legal point of view. 

Perhaps simply calling it 'unmetered' is the best option. This steps us away from Slingshot, Orcon and big downloaders while attracting people simply wanting piece of mind and a reasonable broadband connection.






flip.co.nz

121 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 4


  Reply # 723235 26-Nov-2012 18:59 Send private message

In 10 years at Telecom/Xtra I saw the JetStart, Big Time and Go Large flat-rate plans ultimately fail because people underestimated consumer behaviour with flat-rate plans.

If you are just $5/mth less than the competition you will attract a lot of heavy traffic users relative to your overall inbound churn. This is going to skew your usage patterns big time (no pun intended). Blocking P2P won't make a difference as heavy users don't use P2P protocols a la "skynet" legislation.

If you want to go big on the data front, a 500GB data pack would be a sensible option to test the waters. That's WAY more than most kiwis would ever use and won't attract heavy users. Also with your carry over data it will last for ages for most customers.

Still.. I think there is a market for a 2Mbps unmetered plan as long as people can increase the speed when they want it. Just needs some clever product/marketing wrapped around it. Flip is ideally positioned to take advantage of that from what I can see.

5307 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 804


  Reply # 723243 26-Nov-2012 19:14 Send private message

ScottHoogerbrug: In response to NonprayingMantis


Unless you are going to do it for around $50-60 total (which I doubt) then it would totally go against your entire brand positioning of being extremley cheap. Let Slingshot do their thing and you do yours. Trying to do big caps and unlimited is just going to confuse the hell out of people. 

I tend to disagree. Flip's not just about cheap entry level - we've got large(ish) data packs and unlimited is the next evolution. While I'm still working out the details, the way it's positioned, the price and the how it behaves will be about two things:

1. Saving cash
2. Bill security

Both elements are cornerstones of the Flip brand.

you are owned by slingshot (yes, you have separate management etc etc) so given the only other unlimited provider of any scale is Orcon, then half, or more (probably more like 60-70% given relative sizes of Orcon and Slingshot), of your customers will come from slingshot - eating your own lunch.

To clarify: owned by CallPlus, who owns Slingshot and Flip :)

I don't believe so because of my previous answer. Yes there will be some cannibalisation, but small considering our p2p limiting idea. You've also got to consider what pricing can do to a market - a whole lot of people who used to pay per GB might like the idea more if the price is right.


Well it's your business, so you know who you are targeting, but when your largest data pack at the moment is 40GB that isn't even largish compared to other ISPs. Is only slightly larger than the entry level cap with any of the larger ISPs who tend to start at 30gb.
All of your marketing talks about price with a great big "free broadband" thrown in for good measure and an emphasis on prepaid.
If you are not trying to target low income, low usage, price sensitive customers then I am amazed.


ETA: I guess this means you won't be paying my invoice? Hehe



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

Trusted
Flip NZ

  Reply # 723408 27-Nov-2012 09:09 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:
ScottHoogerbrug: In response to NonprayingMantis


Unless you are going to do it for around $50-60 total (which I doubt) then it would totally go against your entire brand positioning of being extremley cheap. Let Slingshot do their thing and you do yours. Trying to do big caps and unlimited is just going to confuse the hell out of people. 

I tend to disagree. Flip's not just about cheap entry level - we've got large(ish) data packs and unlimited is the next evolution. While I'm still working out the details, the way it's positioned, the price and the how it behaves will be about two things:

1. Saving cash
2. Bill security

Both elements are cornerstones of the Flip brand.

you are owned by slingshot (yes, you have separate management etc etc) so given the only other unlimited provider of any scale is Orcon, then half, or more (probably more like 60-70% given relative sizes of Orcon and Slingshot), of your customers will come from slingshot - eating your own lunch.

To clarify: owned by CallPlus, who owns Slingshot and Flip :)

I don't believe so because of my previous answer. Yes there will be some cannibalisation, but small considering our p2p limiting idea. You've also got to consider what pricing can do to a market - a whole lot of people who used to pay per GB might like the idea more if the price is right.


Well it's your business, so you know who you are targeting, but when your largest data pack at the moment is 40GB that isn't even largish compared to other ISPs. Is only slightly larger than the entry level cap with any of the larger ISPs who tend to start at 30gb.
All of your marketing talks about price with a great big "free broadband" thrown in for good measure and an emphasis on prepaid.
If you are not trying to target low income, low usage, price sensitive customers then I am amazed.


ETA: I guess this means you won't be paying my invoice? Hehe


That's the thing with the marketing provided by all the fixed line telcos these days - it's all about data. So much so that they have convinced the public that they need more. I suspect it's a method to keep prices high as the cost of bumping up data caps is cheaper than lowering access.

The truth is 50% use less than 5GB and it's something like 75% use less than 40GB. Average is around 10-12GB. Considering that, Flip is actually suited for a very wide range of people.

Having an unlimited/unmetered pack not only opens up our service to more people, but demonstrates our service is not just for the low income low usage market. It's for anyone who want's to save cash and have bill security.





flip.co.nz



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

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Flip NZ

  Reply # 723416 27-Nov-2012 09:22 Send private message

In response to mattgreen

Pays to be careful with your legal advice and advertising when offering an "unlmited" plan. You also need to be very smart with your customer/network modelling.

Totally agree - legal opinion will be used and we're going to be doing some tricking things with our network for some simple results. Also why I'm talking to you guys - really appreciate the intelligent feedback on this forum.


As NonprayingMantis said.. You're actually far better looking at another niche. I'd probably go with two $49.95 plan options. 

Option 1 - Your existing full rate 5GB base plan with 5/10/20GB datapacks
Option 2 - Uncapped base plan at ~1Mbps with the ability to add "speed boost" packs that give 2 hours, 12 hours or 1 day of full-rate line usage (enabled and disabled through SMS, web and dialing a shortcode number on the landline)

Could be a plan re option 2, although it would have to be around that speed. Anything higher and we'd start to get a lot of leeches.




flip.co.nz

2391 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 292
Inactive user


  Reply # 723417 27-Nov-2012 09:24 Send private message

ScottHoogerbrug:
Having an unlimited/unmetered pack not only opens up our service to more people, but demonstrates our service is not just for the low income low usage market..



I tend to disagree. Having an unlimited/unmetered pack to me rings alarm bells. Its possibly slow, a poor mans internet, bogged down with customers who like to get things for free.

I work from home a lot, and quiet frankly I will avoid an unlimited plan simply because I know that the p2p kiddies will rather be on unlimited.







147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

Trusted
Flip NZ

  Reply # 723423 27-Nov-2012 09:25 Send private message

In response to l43a2

would the p2p shaping affect games that use p2p to communicate?

That type of p2p won't be affected. The focus will be file sharing activity. 




flip.co.nz

5307 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 804


  Reply # 723436 27-Nov-2012 09:34 Send private message

ScottHoogerbrug:
NonprayingMantis:
ScottHoogerbrug: In response to NonprayingMantis


Unless you are going to do it for around $50-60 total (which I doubt) then it would totally go against your entire brand positioning of being extremley cheap. Let Slingshot do their thing and you do yours. Trying to do big caps and unlimited is just going to confuse the hell out of people. 

I tend to disagree. Flip's not just about cheap entry level - we've got large(ish) data packs and unlimited is the next evolution. While I'm still working out the details, the way it's positioned, the price and the how it behaves will be about two things:

1. Saving cash
2. Bill security

Both elements are cornerstones of the Flip brand.

you are owned by slingshot (yes, you have separate management etc etc) so given the only other unlimited provider of any scale is Orcon, then half, or more (probably more like 60-70% given relative sizes of Orcon and Slingshot), of your customers will come from slingshot - eating your own lunch.

To clarify: owned by CallPlus, who owns Slingshot and Flip :)

I don't believe so because of my previous answer. Yes there will be some cannibalisation, but small considering our p2p limiting idea. You've also got to consider what pricing can do to a market - a whole lot of people who used to pay per GB might like the idea more if the price is right.


Well it's your business, so you know who you are targeting, but when your largest data pack at the moment is 40GB that isn't even largish compared to other ISPs. Is only slightly larger than the entry level cap with any of the larger ISPs who tend to start at 30gb.
All of your marketing talks about price with a great big "free broadband" thrown in for good measure and an emphasis on prepaid.
If you are not trying to target low income, low usage, price sensitive customers then I am amazed.


ETA: I guess this means you won't be paying my invoice? Hehe


That's the thing with the marketing provided by all the fixed line telcos these days - it's all about data. So much so that they have convinced the public that they need more. I suspect it's a method to keep prices high as the cost of bumping up data caps is cheaper than lowering access.

The truth is 50% use less than 5GB and it's something like 75% use less than 40GB. Average is around 10-12GB. Considering that, Flip is actually suited for a very wide range of people.

Having an unlimited/unmetered pack not only opens up our service to more people, but demonstrates our service is not just for the low income low usage market. It's for anyone who want's to save cash and have bill security.



LINK

according to stats NZ, with data collected from ISPs, as at June 2012 the average usage in NZ is 16GB, and that includes the dilution from the several hundred thoursand mobile broadband accounts that only have 1-2GB caps which means the 'real' average for NZ fixed line is going to be more like 20GB, and next year will probably be 30GB+. 

I'm not so sure its the ISPs that have convinced the public that they need more data. The public and media have done a pretty good job of that themselves by always going on about how restrictive NZ data caps are. (although you are right that it makes sense for ISPs to add more data rather than drop price given a choice between the two)





147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

Trusted
Flip NZ

  Reply # 723450 27-Nov-2012 09:46 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:
ScottHoogerbrug:
NonprayingMantis:
ScottHoogerbrug: In response to NonprayingMantis


Unless you are going to do it for around $50-60 total (which I doubt) then it would totally go against your entire brand positioning of being extremley cheap. Let Slingshot do their thing and you do yours. Trying to do big caps and unlimited is just going to confuse the hell out of people. 

I tend to disagree. Flip's not just about cheap entry level - we've got large(ish) data packs and unlimited is the next evolution. While I'm still working out the details, the way it's positioned, the price and the how it behaves will be about two things:

1. Saving cash
2. Bill security

Both elements are cornerstones of the Flip brand.

you are owned by slingshot (yes, you have separate management etc etc) so given the only other unlimited provider of any scale is Orcon, then half, or more (probably more like 60-70% given relative sizes of Orcon and Slingshot), of your customers will come from slingshot - eating your own lunch.

To clarify: owned by CallPlus, who owns Slingshot and Flip :)

I don't believe so because of my previous answer. Yes there will be some cannibalisation, but small considering our p2p limiting idea. You've also got to consider what pricing can do to a market - a whole lot of people who used to pay per GB might like the idea more if the price is right.


Well it's your business, so you know who you are targeting, but when your largest data pack at the moment is 40GB that isn't even largish compared to other ISPs. Is only slightly larger than the entry level cap with any of the larger ISPs who tend to start at 30gb.
All of your marketing talks about price with a great big "free broadband" thrown in for good measure and an emphasis on prepaid.
If you are not trying to target low income, low usage, price sensitive customers then I am amazed.


ETA: I guess this means you won't be paying my invoice? Hehe


That's the thing with the marketing provided by all the fixed line telcos these days - it's all about data. So much so that they have convinced the public that they need more. I suspect it's a method to keep prices high as the cost of bumping up data caps is cheaper than lowering access.

The truth is 50% use less than 5GB and it's something like 75% use less than 40GB. Average is around 10-12GB. Considering that, Flip is actually suited for a very wide range of people.

Having an unlimited/unmetered pack not only opens up our service to more people, but demonstrates our service is not just for the low income low usage market. It's for anyone who want's to save cash and have bill security.



LINK

according to stats NZ, with data collected from ISPs, as at June 2012 the average usage in NZ is 16GB, and that includes the dilution from the several hundred thoursand mobile broadband accounts that only have 1-2GB caps which means the 'real' average for NZ fixed line is going to be more like 20GB, and next year will probably be 30GB+. 

I'm not so sure its the ISPs that have convinced the public that they need more data. The public and media have done a pretty good job of that themselves by always going on about how restrictive NZ data caps are. (although you are right that it makes sense for ISPs to add more data rather than drop price given a choice between the two)




My bad, looks like my stats are a little outdated. My point still stands when you look at the average of 16GB (even if you bump it to 20GB). When you consider that, the 'entry' level plans (at times 50% higher than the average)  that other ISP's provide clearly fall into what I was saying - the caps are a mechanism to keep prices high.

Yes data usage is increasing but not at the rate the industry would lead you to believe.




flip.co.nz

801 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 72


  Reply # 723459 27-Nov-2012 09:59 Send private message

My 2c worth..

I think focusing on p2p traffic management is not the right method.  Telecom, with presumably a bigger budget and more expertise, weren't able to plug all the loopholes and tricks a small but significant minority used.  Together with the move of 'download the internet' people to Usenet, foreign seedboxes and http download services.

I would like the idea of an unmetered type add-on.  It would be a good fit with the 'Free' broadband already offered.  Free broadband, with an add-on for as much data as you want, sounds enticing. 

I would explore a fair use policy, instead of traffic management (which involves an ongoing cost trying to keep up in the arms race with heavy downloaders).  Say users who consistently go over 300/500GB? will be throttled, as you note, hardly anyone in NZ uses that much). Fair use policies like that are common in UK and increasingly the US.



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

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Flip NZ

  Reply # 724285 28-Nov-2012 16:31 Send private message

Thought I should let you know most of the ideas posted here have been put forward for consideration.

Really great insight has been posted.

Thanks again for the feedback.




flip.co.nz



147 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 8

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Flip NZ

  Reply # 742351 9-Jan-2013 15:57 Send private message

So we're not far off doing this and thought I'd post the terms to what we're calling currently the 'no cap data pack'.

Flip’s unmetered data pack (called the ‘no cap data pack’) heavily limits the speed of peer to peer (p2p) downloading at all times to protect overall network performance. This may include some web downloading where appropriate.

At Flip's sole discretion excessive users will be notified to reduce their use, then if no suitable change, removed from this pack.

All other fun stuff like streaming, browsing, gaming and internet calling runs at full speed.



For those who want specifics: This limit will be 128k at all times under full network load - obviously the network is not full at all times though so the speeds actually received could be more. No promises though, like all ISPs we aim to full our pipe while balancing the user speeds received.

Excessive users is still to be defined (thoughts?).

A list will be provided (not ready yet) of approved download sites like Steam which will run at full speed.

Let me know what you think.

Scott




flip.co.nz

7777 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 326

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Subscriber

  Reply # 742605 10-Jan-2013 04:24 Send private message

Savvy leechers don't just use public torrents these days... in your "heavily limited" category you will sooner or later need to have:
- https from known file locker sites
- ftp/ftps from known seedbox hosts/networks
- ssh from known usenet/newsnet hosts/networks

Might as well put it in the wording now, rather than later.

/imo.

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