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  Reply # 829081 31-May-2013 23:23 Send private message

PaulBags:
webwat: Also thought USB support for common UPS might be worthwhile, so router can shut down low-priority services when UPS battery gets low or email the user when UPS battery needs to be replaced. Most UPS now have USB link for updating battery info to a computer.


Is this close enough to your idea?


Yes I just noticed that one, thats what I was thinking as a second option.

Batteries for more that a few seconds could not be internal, however inverting battery voltage to 230VAC and then back to 12VDC into the router seems inefficient. A battery backup that plugs straight into the 12V input of the router would be more ideal and eliminate the temptation to plug all kinds of other 230VAC devices into it, so the battery could be dedicated to the router only. Might need to reinforce the need to put batteries on the ONT though...

No device is 100% failure proof, so when its mission critical you look for redundancy and ways to eliminate every "single point of failure". Power supply is usually the big failure risk, routers need to be rebooted sometimes too.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 829090 31-May-2013 23:36 One person supports this post Send private message

Yes but they *shouldn't* need to be rebooted, that's just the _Average Joe_ who's used to cr@ppy free routers that ISP's give away.

The chances of a power supply blowing are significantly less than any kind of other failure on almost all current routers ISP's give away, from it overheating, to DHCP doing stupid $@#^ things, to WiFi performance randomly diving when you get more than a few devices on it, to it simply packing up altogether under load.

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  Reply # 829096 1-Jun-2013 00:32 Send private message

webwat: Batteries for more that a few seconds could not be internal, however inverting battery voltage to 230VAC and then back to 12VDC into the router seems inefficient. A battery backup that plugs straight into the 12V input of the router would be more ideal and eliminate the temptation to plug all kinds of other 230VAC devices into it, so the battery could be dedicated to the router only. Might need to reinforce the need to put batteries on the ONT though...


Running off of batteries would never be an ideal situation anyway, so I could live with the inefficacy if I had to. But there is plenty of equipment that runs off of 12vdc, so I'd love to see a ups with multiple 12v outputs and then wire up most of your equipment to it. Heck make the battery external & the average user could use a small SLA (if they're not satisfied with using a mobile in a pinch) and anyone else could chuck as a big a deep cycle battery as they have room for on there. Take away the need for inverting and rectify instead, and you'd take away most of the heat and make it easier for the ups to handle long run times with mains disconnected.

I've always thought it pretty inefficient to run an inverter into a desktop psu too, would love to be able to get a high powered desktop psu that ran on 10-16v. Then run it off a benchtop power supply and a deep cycle battery, adjusting the voltage as and when needed to condition the battery.

 

Not that I can afford these things, and I'm out of touch with what's possible these days anyway; I just like to think about it now and then.

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  Reply # 829110 1-Jun-2013 09:00 Send private message



I suggested a built in battery backup but I'm not sure how much current a mid-sized router draws. It can't be that much more than a high end smart phone though? I would think you could easily build in a good few hours of battery life.



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  Reply # 829168 1-Jun-2013 12:43 Send private message

Adsl chipsets are putting out a lot of power up the line. And routers tend to run hot too. Would be closer to a netbook than a mobile phone




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 829170 1-Jun-2013 13:00 Send private message

richms: Adsl chipsets are putting out a lot of power up the line. And routers tend to run hot too. Would be closer to a netbook than a mobile phone


well put a 9 cell laptop battery in there should last 8 hours :P













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  Reply # 829195 1-Jun-2013 14:53 Send private message

hamish225:
richms: Adsl chipsets are putting out a lot of power up the line. And routers tend to run hot too. Would be closer to a netbook than a mobile phone


well put a 9 cell laptop battery in there should last 8 hours :P


But it wouldn't be running off the battery most of the time. Lithium batteries are smaller and lighter, but they're also more expensive and store better at half charge rather than being continually topped up. As far as I'm aware lead acid batteries are still the best for standby or online UPS applications. And at that point you might as well make it a big lead acid and connect other stuff to it.

As for 8 hours: I live in Christchurch and a couple of years ago we were without power for a couple of weeks (or more, I can't remember but it felt like months). It's pretty unlikely we'll ever be without power for 2 weeks again. But I'd still like to have enough power to have phone services for two weeks, and maybe to use a desktop for at least an hour a day; plus charge cellphones & etc. When the copper gets disconnected that means even more power again just to keep the phone on. (although pc's will probably be more green by then).

If you want to make available a token ups psu/glorified-wallwart for users who only want to ride a brownout or some drunk hitting a power pole then that's cool, that's all most would ever want or need anyway. I'd love to see it as an option. But please don't build the extra bulk into the device itself when it may not be wanted, adequate, or efficient; depending on the users needs (or let's face it, wants).

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  Reply # 829208 1-Jun-2013 15:15 Send private message

PaulBags:
hamish225:
richms: Adsl chipsets are putting out a lot of power up the line. And routers tend to run hot too. Would be closer to a netbook than a mobile phone


well put a 9 cell laptop battery in there should last 8 hours :P


But it wouldn't be running off the battery most of the time. Lithium batteries are smaller and lighter, but they're also more expensive and store better at half charge rather than being continually topped up. As far as I'm aware lead acid batteries are still the best for standby or online UPS applications. And at that point you might as well make it a big lead acid and connect other stuff to it.

As for 8 hours: I live in Christchurch and a couple of years ago we were without power for a couple of weeks (or more, I can't remember but it felt like months). It's pretty unlikely we'll ever be without power for 2 weeks again. But I'd still like to have enough power to have phone services for two weeks, and maybe to use a desktop for at least an hour a day; plus charge cellphones & etc. When the copper gets disconnected that means even more power again just to keep the phone on. (although pc's will probably be more green by then).

If you want to make available a token ups psu/glorified-wallwart for users who only want to ride a brownout or some drunk hitting a power pole then that's cool, that's all most would ever want or need anyway. I'd love to see it as an option. But please don't build the extra bulk into the device itself when it may not be wanted, adequate, or efficient; depending on the users needs (or let's face it, wants).


i know how you feel, i just left and ran off to kaiapoi, they got their power back long before my house in shirley did.

perhaps you could even connect a solar panel to the system and have that charge it when there's no mains. we may not lose power for that long ever again but it'd give me a sort of security blanket knowing that i could still use my netbook/phone to access the internet













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  Reply # 829241 1-Jun-2013 16:44 Send private message

I bought a really cheap 2 stroke generator a while back for that exact reason.

Total runtime would be about 4 hours on the thing and it broke. First it was the pull cord mechanism, then it just stopped having a spark.

Solar is getting there, but it seems that the only viable payback is on a grid tied system, and if the grid is down, they dont produce anything.

No idea if you could use them to supplement a generator.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 829493 2-Jun-2013 01:09 Send private message

I can say with a fair amount of certainty that there won't be any batteries or battery backup for the router.  There was a huge amount of discussion internally when UFB was first talked about with the whole battery backup thing.

It just leads into all sorts of nasty areas I am fairly sure Telecom wants to stay away from.

- Who changes the battery when it gets old?
- What happens if the battery leaks or explodes and burns down your house who is liable?
- Is it up to the ISP to continually monitor the Battery service and to hold spares for x years so when it's nearing the end of it's life need to send one out?  And collect the returned one? And safely dispose of it?
- If it's speced to work for 2/4/8/x hours and it fails after x + 2 hours, and someone needs to dial 111 and dies who is to blame?
- If it gets overloaded or used improperly causing fault or fire? Should it be replaced?
- Who should run a test every month draining the batter to ensure the battery is still performing properly?

This is why among various other reasons I seriously doubt any sort of battery backup would be offered.  It would (and IMHO should) be the responsibility of the individual to source their own battery backup, ensure they properly monitor it, replace the batteries when they get old themselves and dispose of the old batteries in a proper way.  Having any RSP involved in that just gets very murky very quickly.




I work for Telecom Spark, but as always my views are my own.

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  Reply # 829500 2-Jun-2013 03:16 Send private message

plambrechtsen: - Who should run a test every month draining the battery to ensure the battery is still performing properly?



im sure a piece of software could handle that one?













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  Reply # 830451 4-Jun-2013 13:03 One person supports this post Send private message

There have been a few Comments about the current crappy router that telecom deploys but the Technicolor TG582n router is actually pretty powerful as I discovered today when I found my self buried in the 800+ page CLI guide. For example it looks like you can do conditional DNS forwarding as per the feature that Mauricio was keen on. I haven't tried it out yet but here's what the guide says:









BDFL
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  Reply # 830470 4-Jun-2013 13:09 Send private message

A heads up I am n AKL now but later today will post the top suggestions for the final vote round.





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  Reply # 831189 5-Jun-2013 18:43 One person supports this post Send private message

Was thinking about the bias of listing ideas from newest to oldest. So did some quick analysis.
Graph of idea order vs number of votes. You might want to investigate the obvious outliers in this data...

Of course might be a product of the good ideas being obvious to us, and being identified early. Be interesting to know which page the ideas appeared on or even page views?



Sorry image issues...

Jon


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  Reply # 831191 5-Jun-2013 18:50 Send private message

hamish225:
plambrechtsen: - Who should run a test every month draining the battery to ensure the battery is still performing properly?



im sure a piece of software could handle that one?


I'm sure it could easily be done in software (as it is done in software today).

But my point is "who's" responsibility is it to read the output of the script, and depending on the output do something about it.  If it is the end-users then it's fine.  If it falls on the RSP, then it opens up a whole management and logistics issue with supporting that.






I work for Telecom Spark, but as always my views are my own.

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