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1140 posts

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  Reply # 832323 7-Jun-2013 15:19 Send private message

ChillingSilence: 
That's fantastic, my wife is *exactly* the same! :D


Which goes to highlight the point you were making. Many less technical users don't really have an idea how much those little pieces of plastic are actually worth.

Luckily those purchasing decisions are delegated to me in our household :-)

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  Reply # 832325 7-Jun-2013 15:20 One person supports this post Send private message

I know plenty of people that have gone out and bought another router because the wireless on the supplied one was slow, or it crashed or whatever.

Most ended up with an ethernet router plugged into their ADSL router and double nat, and things connecting to one or the other wireless connection and not seeing any improvement. Being sold the wrong item for the task by non-tech knowledgable salespeople.




Richard rich.ms

297 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832328 7-Jun-2013 15:31 Send private message

richms: I know plenty of people that have gone out and bought another router because the wireless on the supplied one was slow, or it crashed or whatever.

Most ended up with an ethernet router plugged into their ADSL router and double nat, and things connecting to one or the other wireless connection and not seeing any improvement. Being sold the wrong item for the task by non-tech knowledgable salespeople.


Tell me about it, I agree, which sucks coz it's so easy for them to bugger up the firmware as-is on just DSL routers, let alone including additional things like DLNA, PoE, DVB-T recording and timeshifting...

Routers are already *so* hit-n-miss...

478 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832329 7-Jun-2013 15:34 Send private message

Some type of built in NAS storage would be really great if it worked properly. I've heard a lot of stories of how bad storage attached to a router usually works. If they could make it work well, then I personally would probably use it.

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  Reply # 832336 7-Jun-2013 16:20 Send private message

ChillingSilence:
richms: I know plenty of people that have gone out and bought another router because the wireless on the supplied one was slow, or it crashed or whatever.

Most ended up with an ethernet router plugged into their ADSL router and double nat, and things connecting to one or the other wireless connection and not seeing any improvement. Being sold the wrong item for the task by non-tech knowledgable salespeople.


Tell me about it, I agree, which sucks coz it's so easy for them to bugger up the firmware as-is on just DSL routers, let alone including additional things like DLNA, PoE, DVB-T recording and timeshifting...

Routers are already *so* hit-n-miss...

You've just made my point.  Most people don't understand the technology and are frightened of being sold something they can't use or won't work.

If Telecom come along and say "we can combine all these pieces of equipment to allow you to x,y,z" then the consumer will be on board.

ChillingSilence: Trying to convince somebody to spend over $500 (It'll easily be over $500 with the proposed feature-sets) vs a free router and $150 for an AppleTV... I'll give you 3 guesses which one they'll pick every single time! ;-)

We don't know the price point at this stage - but it's not just $150 for an AppleTV!  How do you get content to your AppleTV?  You can't plug a USB drive into it - you need to be running something else that will serve to it.  People want ubiquitous solutions - with a home gateway/media device it's one thing to just plug and play.




Procrastination eventually pays off.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832338 7-Jun-2013 16:27 Send private message

StarBlazer: You've just made my point.  Most people don't understand the technology and are frightened of being sold something they can't use or won't work.

If Telecom come along and say "we can combine all these pieces of equipment to allow you to x,y,z" then the consumer will be on board.

My point is they can't even do it on a basic router, and same for Orcon with the Genius router which is flaky as anything. If they're adding even more in, it's just going to turn to total custard.


 StarBlazer: We don't know the price point at this stage - but it's not just $150 for an AppleTV!  How do you get content to your AppleTV?  You can't plug a USB drive into it - you need to be running something else that will serve to it.  People want ubiquitous solutions - with a home gateway/media device it's one thing to just plug and play.

We don't, but we can take an educated guess, and theres absolutely zero reason for them to sell it at cost, so given the price of other similar routers you can *easily* look in the $600+ range.

There's the other similar devices available, I think somebody linked to one for AUD$600.

Regarding the AppleTV, you can't plug a HDD into it coz you don't *need* to. You buy a legit copy of a movie straight from iTunes, straight from the device. This device only costs $150, and the movies are quite affordable too. So why is that not more prevalent? People want movies, they want ease-of-use... It's been advertised on TV and stuff in the past too?!

I honestly think this device, if it has all that extra fluff in it, will end up a very *niche* device with an incredibly limited appeal... Unless it's given away free with their connection (Yeah right! Like that'll happen).

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  Reply # 832341 7-Jun-2013 16:42 Send private message

ChillingSilence:
eXDee: 
Counter point: what if there is a large portion of people who simply don't know this is possible? Or if they do, they assume it's difficult. Market to Telecoms large customer base with an easy to set up device that they can plug a hard drive into, and have play on various devices across the network, and you could have a winner. They can send out a flyer in the bill or include it with intouch news flyer.

Codec support with a non transcoding DLNA server becomes an issue for the end device such as a smart TV or media player. For reasons above I'm eliminating the idea of the device having its own video out. But these days I've yet to see a smart TV or media player without a good range of format support. The user can upgrade if this is an issue for them.

Also DLNA wouldn't be every feature under the sun. Most medium to high end routers have this.

Lastly you need to sell features, not tech specs. Who of Telecoms customer base is going to upgrade to a more expensive modem than their current one if it doesn't do anything more? They shouldn't be selling unreliable devices in the first place, and they have a higher grade business modem and gateway already. This device needs to have a few extra features that you seem to strongly be against for it to be successful or it'll disappear from the market in a matter of months due to poor uptake.


How many non-techie friends do you have gone and purchased a router though, and not used a free one their ISP supplies? Lets be honest, us Kiwis can be a pretty *cheap* bunch at times, routers is one of those areas.
Trying to convince somebody to spend over $500 (It'll easily be over $500 with the proposed feature-sets) vs a free router and $150 for an AppleTV... I'll give you 3 guesses which one they'll pick every single time! ;-)


Not many do, which is why i pointed out they have plenty of potential buyers via advertising to their customers. If you hand them a solution on a plate (or rather, in an advert in the mail), they may well jump on it, unaware that such a thing even was possible or existed. They trust their ISP and want support from them, and would be concerned about buying the wrong thing if they went elsewhere. Give them something that's endorsed by the ISP and there is a potential market there to sell to. I know of businesses which have hosted a 30+ person office including mail server and remote desktop on a Dlink DSL-502T. Why? Not because it was free, not because it was good (its rubbish), but because it came from Telecom and that's all they had on offer back then. As for home users, i have known people to pay their ISP $200 for a replacement modem even when there cheaper and superior alternatives they are aware of in retail stores. Again, because it's from their ISP. 

This isn't trying to appeal to the cheap people who will only ever use a free modem. This is for the people who want to spend money on something quality with a good feature set. This project has been stated to be a premium product from the beginning and i read that as "$200-400" in my mind for such a device depending on its feature set.

I don't think it should have TV tuners or video outputs, i'ts already been covered why those aren't feasible. But USB and DLNA are standard features that you can get on a sub $100 device. Example. This may not be high performance, but that's expected for the price being paid. For the price range i expect this to be in, it should have better performance, and would be inferior to the competition if it didn't have such features.

The internal storage idea i already covered and i'm skeptical of and find it unnecessary, but they might want to offer a unique solution, even if there are things that have to be taken into account.

This device needs to have several features to appeal to different sets of people. Examples:
1) Ease of use for the typical user
2) Customizable for the power user
3) Business relevant options like VPN connectivity
4) Home media options for the smart home such as USB with DLNA.
5) Bandwidth metering for some accounts, where a bill is split for example such as a flat
6) Content filtering/time restriction for a family to control their childrens internet use

You can quite readily make a powerful and feature filled device without it being too expensive or going crazy.

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  Reply # 832342 7-Jun-2013 16:43 One person supports this post Send private message

ChillingSilence: Regarding the AppleTV, you can't plug a HDD into it coz you don't *need* to. You buy a legit copy of a movie straight from iTunes, straight from the device. This device only costs $150, and the movies are quite affordable too. So why is that not more prevalent? People want movies, they want ease-of-use... It's been advertised on TV and stuff in the past too?!


Because not everybody wants to be tied to the Apple infrastructure or stream stuff off the internet (at cost of the cap) every time they want to watch or listen to something.  Without iTunes running somewhere you can't listen to your music (bought legit on CD) or view your photos or watch your home movies etc etc.

I don't want this to be a which is better Apple/non Apple, Ford/Holden, separate parts/all-in-one discussion.  Perhaps rather than writing it off and beating it with a stick before it's even been blue-printed try to be supportive of the initiative.  If it's a lemon, Telecom will suffer (like TCL with the T-Box) if you're never likely to buy it because you are so "way past these requirements" then don't. 

Some of us are genuinely interested in what this could offer because right now it would make my life much easier.

In respect to cost, well they are already giving away $1000+ phones just by signing up to a 24month contract on a specific plan - perhaps this would be free or heavily subsidised on a 100G plan - I don't know and I don't suppose Telecom do either.  I'm quite sure that at the point of going to a manufacturer they will work out which features are cost effective.




Procrastination eventually pays off.

297 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832353 7-Jun-2013 17:14 Send private message

I'm writing it off because I'm a realist. What would make *more* peoples lives easier would be a solid, reliable one, with a trimmed down feature-set (Software wise) that is incredibly simple and easy to use.

This sounds like a toy for the rich, but those who *have* that kind of money can already easily find ways of doing the things that are proposed for this device. Nobody can find a cost-effective, reliable, easy to use router because one simply does not exist.

I'm not personally going to buy it, but that doesn't stop the fact I have an interest in such a device if it works, considering I live and breath this stuff pretty much every single day. My interest is for the many friends, family, and other general people that I come across on a daily basis that are fed up with the horrid routers they have that are causing flaky internet. If they don't even know how to use the WebUI of that to find out what's wrong, then a device with all this extra stuff is most certainly not going to be any use.

Given that the majority of home users apparently use 40GB per-home, and the average plan in the country I belive now is 100GB, that leaves 60GB a month for streaming movies if they wanted to take it up. No, the data caps are most certainly *not* the prohibiting factor in iTunes, and most people don't give two thoughts to "being tied into the apple infrastructure". Geez most users wouldn't even realize the limitations of it.

$1000+ phones have been given away for a long time. To absorb the cost of a $500 router over 24 months is a little different to them absorbing the cost of a $30 router as they currently do. That's another $20 a month to just "absorb"?! There goes most of their profits...

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832415 7-Jun-2013 19:31 Send private message

I think there is plenty of room for something like this, but I won't be buying one. Why? Because I don't support TV networks sticking to broadcast media. I want my tv via the internet, when I want to watch it, to keep on a local drive, without all these fancy gadgets/drm/ads getting in my way. If I could buy quality non-drm no-ads tv for $2 an episode I would. But buying a fancy gadget to record it and remove/skip the ads myself? Not happening.

Dear Telecom: please make a "cost-effective, reliable" modem/router with useful networking features such as the monitoring/quotaing/restricting features people have voted for. Then lobby network companies, foreign and domestic, to form a central selling point for drm & ad free high quality digital content; at an affordable price per episode. Mirror the datacentre for this service in NZ, to save international bandwidth for other things. I would even be happy if this service wasn't zero rated.

Do that, and this entire 'media router' concept becomes an entirely moot point, and people get better access to better quality tv.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 832424 7-Jun-2013 20:21 Send private message

Integrated Hard Drive:

Would create too many SKUs to cater for different expectations. Just build in DLNA / NAS functions and include USB3 + eSATA ports, & maybe an xSD card slot. I like the idea of a zero rated data online backup plan that would backup any data on the attached drive(s)

TV tuner etc.:

no - adds too much complexity, and very few people have their router anywhere near the TV - even those I know with fibre tend to have it in a cupboard.

External Antenna connection

Definite yes - wifi coverage is probably one of the things most likely to be noticed by people.

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  Reply # 832448 7-Jun-2013 21:15 Send private message

Why ESATA? how many external drives support ESATA? It is not likely anyone will use a naked SATA drive as an external drive.

29 posts

Geek


  Reply # 832456 7-Jun-2013 22:17 Send private message

Kyanar: TV tuner? Interesting idea, but with TVs these days having build in Freeview, and Freeview supporting DVRs being so cheap, no real point in it.


Although every new TV these days has inbuilt DVB-T, I don't think there is a single TV on the market with an inbuilt Freeview-approved DVB-S tuner, and the range of DVB-S DVRs is limited compared to the DVB-T ones. Because of this, I like the idea of a device with a DVB-S tuner, along with the possibility for storage (USB/SATA etc).

As for the software side of things, I don't really mind what's included. As long as the hardware kernel modules are open source and there is a means to bootstrap Optware or similar, I'd be happy.

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  Reply # 832464 7-Jun-2013 22:53 One person supports this post Send private message

Honestly, how many geeks on this thread who want an all singing all dancing 'solution' have thought it through? Can I ask who of you want to continue to be the family/friend goto person for this device? Oh, right, you don't need to as the ISP has a helpdesk. So, now, when you get the 10th request to pull the power to reboot it you interrupt a disk write and stuff the disk with all the family photos, videos and music. Didn't think that would happen - oh dear.

How many 'normal' people you know can do anything with the current UI interface of a modem router?

How about firmware updates? What a nightmare.

So, if you think I am being too negative, point your relatives/friends to this thread and ask them to tell you what it is all about. But don't forget to provide a glossary of all the acronyms and geekie terms used. Even the explanations of the acronyms won't mean diddly to the greater mass of people.

If Telecom can honestly say this complicated device can be plonked in the homes of non geeks and it will all be rosy, then, fine, go ahead. But I sure as hell won't be buying Telecom shares! Or spending all my waking hours trying to get my friends/rellies sorted.

But perhaps it wouldn't be targeted at the masses. So how economic would that be in a small market like NZ?

But you may disagree. Feel free!

297 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 832498 8-Jun-2013 07:24 Send private message

^^ Finally a little bit of sanity to this forum ;)

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