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BDFL
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  Reply # 832511 8-Jun-2013 09:04 2 people support this post Send private message

linw: If Telecom can honestly say this complicated device can be plonked in the homes of non geeks and it will all be rosy, then, fine, go ahead.



How do you know it's a complicated device if we haven't seen the final list of implemented features?

Up until now we are throwing ideas around, collecting feedback and then Telecom will get this on to some people who will actually say "Yes/No/Dumb/Impossible" and then we will have something to say good things/bad things.

You folks are putting the cart in front of the horses. 

Like in any brainstorm, any idea is welcome. We're getting your comments. Some feel strongly one way or another. That's fine. But comments should be on the merit of ideas, not on an nonexistent device.

Well, it's not yet the time to say it's complicated because we don't know what it is yet.





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  Reply # 832518 8-Jun-2013 09:31 Send private message

StarBlazer:
ChillingSilence:
richms: I know plenty of people that have gone out and bought another router because the wireless on the supplied one was slow, or it crashed or whatever.

Most ended up with an ethernet router plugged into their ADSL router and double nat, and things connecting to one or the other wireless connection and not seeing any improvement. Being sold the wrong item for the task by non-tech knowledgable salespeople.


Tell me about it, I agree, which sucks coz it's so easy for them to bugger up the firmware as-is on just DSL routers, let alone including additional things like DLNA, PoE, DVB-T recording and timeshifting...

Routers are already *so* hit-n-miss...

You've just made my point.  Most people don't understand the technology and are frightened of being sold something they can't use or won't work.

If Telecom come along and say "we can combine all these pieces of equipment to allow you to x,y,z" then the consumer will be on board.

ChillingSilence: Trying to convince somebody to spend over $500 (It'll easily be over $500 with the proposed feature-sets) vs a free router and $150 for an AppleTV... I'll give you 3 guesses which one they'll pick every single time! ;-)

We don't know the price point at this stage - but it's not just $150 for an AppleTV!  How do you get content to your AppleTV?  You can't plug a USB drive into it - you need to be running something else that will serve to it.  People want ubiquitous solutions - with a home gateway/media device it's one thing to just plug and play.


Interesting comment about the apple tv. I agree you need a server/client type arrangement. My AEBS does this, but my apple tv only works now that it has been JBed with XBMC installed. However the alternative is running a NAS or computer 24/7 with itunes running on it.

If there was a router with a NAS feature built in with an itunes server most non-technical people would jump on it. You could could also include other media management library servers, but they would need some serious instructions as would this solution.

I wonder if apple is already planning some of this. I heard a rumour that they are planning on new skus for the AEBS. Having a itunes server built into that would be awesome.

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  Reply # 832560 8-Jun-2013 10:49 Send private message

freitasm:
linw: If Telecom can honestly say this complicated device can be plonked in the homes of non geeks and it will all be rosy, then, fine, go ahead.



How do you know it's a complicated device if we haven't seen the final list of implemented features?

Up until now we are throwing ideas around, collecting feedback and then Telecom will get this on to some people who will actually say "Yes/No/Dumb/Impossible" and then we will have something to say good things/bad things.


Yeah coz I dunno if you've seen the same list as I've seen, but I look at that and think "There is no way on earth this is going to work reliably".

freitasm: You folks are putting the cart in front of the horses. 

Like in any brainstorm, any idea is welcome. We're getting your comments. Some feel strongly one way or another. That's fine. But comments should be on the merit of ideas, not on an nonexistent device.

Well, it's not yet the time to say it's complicated because we don't know what it is yet.



No, it *is* time to say it's complicated. In fact it should have been said a lot more, a lot sooner, so we might actually be voting on some *useful* features rather than this get to Telecom and they say "Hmm OK so we put in Gigabit (What new router doesn't come out with that these days), we put in 802.11ac, we put in a bandwidth meter, then sell it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread"

If we'd said more about simplifying things sooner and been able to vote on something like "Having a very limited WebUI, intentionally excluding most things that can go wrong with a router, automating all the settings that don't need to be there such as the Encapsulation settings", rather than seeing things like "Lets have PoE ports in the router". Yeah it sounds cool to have PoE ports, but it's just *not* functional, cost effective, it'll heat the device up significantly, and its never ever going to be used by the masses.

Rather than stifling this kind of thing you should be encouraging it! Thinking critically about what is actually wrong with the current line of routers that is available to customers, why they would actually want to *pay* for this (Coz you've said it's not going to be a free giveaway) and what they'll actually get out of it.

I'm just disappointed because this could have been a fantastic opportunity that looks to have been wasted.

In my opinion, here's a realistic list of the shortlisted suggestions they'll implement:
- Bandwidth meter, potentially with restrictions.
- VoIP support with one FXS port. Customers don't actually care about HD voice so that'll get the chop, especially given that Telecom themselves don't support that right now and they also have zero consumer VoIP offerings. If their corporate SIP offerings are anything to go by, they've got a long way to go
- 4x gigabit ports. They won't do them PoE, and they won't do 8 of them
- The additional SSID that's segmented won't be implemented, it's too hard for an end-user to apply restrictions to something like that. They might allow two SSID's, sure, but there won't be any restrictions on it. At best, it'll have wireless client isolation.
- Maaaaybe support for 802.11ac. It'll support 5Ghz frequencies for N-Wireless for sure though.
- VPN support for passthrough for pptp etc, but it'll most likely not include client / server support for pptp / openvpn
- Mounting brackets, maybe. Perhaps they'll do a DrayTek and just include a cut-out you can use for screw holes, that seems most likely

The sad part is that none of the aforementioned is new, revolutionary, or anything that you can't get in most of the routers out there today.



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  Reply # 832561 8-Jun-2013 10:53 Send private message

My only concern here is that there are pages and pages of the same criticism. I already said it: this is being passed on to Telecom. They're following the discussions and taking note.

There's no need to keep repeating and repeating. If you disagree with some of the ideas, great, you already said it. There's no need to have every third reply being this all over again.

ChillingSilence: I'm just disappointed because this could have been a fantastic opportunity that looks to have been wasted.


We haven't even touched on a final list and you are already treating it as doomed.

I think we need criticism but don't need someone trying to kill the project even before the brainstorm phase is closed.

Your opinion is noted so I think there's no more space for this now.





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  Reply # 832565 8-Jun-2013 11:02 Send private message

freitasm: My only concern here is that there are pages and pages of the same criticism. I already said it: this is being passed on to Telecom. They're following the discussions and taking note.

There's no need to keep repeating and repeating. If you disagree with some of the ideas, great, you already said it. There's no need to have every third reply being this all over again.


Yet you keep dismissing these ideas regularly, perhaps that's why others, not just myself, are repeating them. Perhaps we've looked beyond the initial enthusiasm of the idea and actually put some thought into it?

freitasm: I think we need criticism but don't need someone trying to kill the project even before the brainstorm phase is closed.

You seem to be doing a mighty fine job of that on your own. Why not encourage more discussion around it? Why not tease out the idea of *why* they're offering this router, what customers are actually going to get out of it that they can't, the pros and cons of including things.

Foreign concept: Why not discuss the project in the discussion thread?



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  Reply # 832570 8-Jun-2013 11:08 Send private message

ChillingSilence:
freitasm: My only concern here is that there are pages and pages of the same criticism. I already said it: this is being passed on to Telecom. They're following the discussions and taking note.

There's no need to keep repeating and repeating. If you disagree with some of the ideas, great, you already said it. There's no need to have every third reply being this all over again.


Yet you keep dismissing these ideas regularly, perhaps that's why others, not just myself, are repeating them. Perhaps we've looked beyond the initial enthusiasm of the idea and actually put some thought into it?


I can't dismissing the ideas. I am not here to support one idea or another. I am here to collect them. Once collected they're passed on to Telecom, plus your comments. You seem to fail to understand my role here.

ChillingSilence: 
freitasm: I think we need criticism but don't need someone trying to kill the project even before the brainstorm phase is closed.

You seem to be doing a mighty fine job of that on your own. Why not encourage more discussion around it? Why not tease out the idea of *why* they're offering this router, what customers are actually going to get out of it that they can't, the pros and cons of including things.



I am trying, but you seem to be hell bent on derailing it by inundating the discussions with repeating arguments.

ChillingSilence: Foreign concept: Why not discuss the project in the discussion thread?


The project is open, there's a discussion thread and this one for comments. Both are being used by it seems you are doing a fine job of overloading everyone with the same thing over and over again.






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  Reply # 832573 8-Jun-2013 11:12 Send private message

freitasm: I can't dismissing the ideas. I am not here to support one idea or another. I am here to collect them. Once collected they're passed on to Telecom, plus your comments. You seem to fail to understand my role here.

So you can't even engage in the discussion at all to spur it on? Coz you seem to do a brilliant job of stifling it.

freitasm: I am trying, but you seem to be hell bent on derailing it by inundating the discussions with repeating arguments.

I think I'm one of the few who's interested in actually discussing the merits behind the ideas before they're passed on. Why has that become such a crime?
If there's not going to be any discussion around it, just voting, why does this thread even exist?



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  Reply # 832576 8-Jun-2013 11:13 Send private message

I've sent you a PM about this.




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  Reply # 832579 8-Jun-2013 11:16 Send private message

ChillingSilence:
freitasm: I can't dismissing the ideas. I am not here to support one idea or another. I am here to collect them. Once collected they're passed on to Telecom, plus your comments. You seem to fail to understand my role here.

So you can't even engage in the discussion at all to spur it on? Coz you seem to do a brilliant job of stifling it.

freitasm: I am trying, but you seem to be hell bent on derailing it by inundating the discussions with repeating arguments.

I think I'm one of the few who's interested in actually discussing the merits behind the ideas before they're passed on. Why has that become such a crime?
If there's not going to be any discussion around it, just voting, why does this thread even exist?


I think what was missing from the outset is a "what market is this for" as there are a few (you being one of them chill) you're thinking it should be for a mass market/consumer level, and others from a high end geek market.

Noone will ever agree with 2 such opposed markets to think about.  Not to say either is wrong, but without a stated direction then these types of "it's too complicated", "it's too simple" conversations will continue.




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  Reply # 832580 8-Jun-2013 11:17 Send private message

freitasm: I've sent you a PM about this.

I don't know why that was required in a PM, I have nothing to hide

davidcole: I think what was missing from the outset is a "what market is this for" as there are a few (you being one of them chill) you're thinking it should be for a mass market/consumer level, and others from a high end geek market.

Noone will ever agree with 2 such opposed markets to think about.  Not to say either is wrong, but without a stated direction then these types of "it's too complicated", "it's too simple" conversations will continue.


Agreed, I've asked consistently for a little more input from the forum management, but it's not really forthcoming :-/



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  Reply # 832583 8-Jun-2013 11:22 Send private message

I already said in previous post this is a "modem/gateway". Telecom specifically didn't call it a "modem/router" because they want something more than that.

I already said this is a mid to high-end device. It's not a freebie device. It can possibly be used with other ISPs, as it's something available for consumers in general. This is in the project brief post folks.

I already said there's no constraints in what ideas to put in, because it's a brainstorm. Later on those top ideas, plus some of Telecom's own plus the comments here will shape the product. Then there'll be discussions around price. This is in the project brief post as well.

I have no problem with people discussing the ideas. But some people seem to be inundating the discussion and I just have the impression others don't post because they're afraid of their comments being shot down instantly.





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  Reply # 832596 8-Jun-2013 11:32 Send private message

TV tuner... guess telecom won't be providing IPTV any time soon.

Hard Drive for BACKUP purposes would be a great idea but again there is $200 just for a decent sized hard drive. If you make people pay extra for the hard drive to enable backup they wont spend the extra cash. so pointless to include the feature..




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  Reply # 832604 8-Jun-2013 11:49 Send private message

mentalinc: TV tuner... guess telecom won't be providing IPTV any time soon.

Hard Drive for BACKUP purposes would be a great idea but again there is $200 just for a decent sized hard drive. If you make people pay extra for the hard drive to enable backup they wont spend the extra cash. so pointless to include the feature..


I have thought about the idea of a tv tuner. However I would only be interested if they deliver a HDhomerun type device, rather than a igloo or tivo type device. What I mean is an unencrypted stream which can be pulled in over the network by any device.

Aereo is another technology model which might be suitable.

Although I can't see Telecom getting on the wrong side of TVNZ or Mediaworks in either of these cases.

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  Reply # 832608 8-Jun-2013 11:58 One person supports this post Send private message

If the storage offers a cloud backup service with it then it would be a great addition to it, and being that it is in the same device doing the internet connection it could easily handle all the rate limiting of the uploads to prevent a deterioration of the internet experience that people on the network get.

So many people I know just dont know anything about backing up till some punk walks off with their computer or the drive poos itself. At least the computer been taken one isnt hard or me to explain to them, but the HDD failures are a right pain.




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  Reply # 832609 8-Jun-2013 12:00 Send private message

My appologies for perhaps posting in the wrong place or if this has been covered already (sorry too many little arguements clogged up my quick scroll through these threads).

My idea, functionality for the gateway to easily interface to one of those free static ip websites?
e.g. allows simple connection of any ip web cameras people use these days for all sorts of things (baby monitors etc), so they can eaisly get it streamed to their phones/laptops/tablets that are elsewhere outside of their home wifi? Could this be done using a specific cloud based service? e.g. partner with one of them like you see TV manufactuers partnering with skype and including the skype app in their firmware etc etc.




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