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  Reply # 1024965 14-Apr-2014 15:52 Send private message

alasta:
KiwiNZ:I like the Outlander and the Holden Volt but ideally I would prefer not to use fossil fuels at all. The Toyota Prius C at $32,280 or the Honda Insight at $36,900 are not badly priced given the technology used. 


Okay, that's actually cheaper than I thought.


The Kia Rio whilst cheap is not a good drive at all, I had one for a couple of days for a test drive and it was horrible.


I have one and I don't really have a problem with it. As with most cars of that size it's underpowered, but the ride and handling seems fine as is the quality of the switchgear. I don't use it much, though, so maybe I just wouldn't notice the difference between a good car and a bad one.


I have to admit Kia pack a lot of kit into the Rio's for the price you pay and it actually staggers me that they can keep such a low price point for what they put in.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1024987 14-Apr-2014 16:39 Send private message

So the question - is it better to drive an older, well-maintained car until it dies, buy a new hybrid – ride public transport, or maybe pedal to work?.. can be answered differently by each of us.

You do have to look at cars through the whole cycle from manufacture to disposal - overall carbon footprint, external resource consumption, and, as was mentioned earlier, the psychological effects of road congestion..

An interesting (US) stat I saw: “Toyota found that as much as 28 percent of the carbon dioxide emissions generated during the lifecycle of a typical gasoline-powered car can occur during its manufacture and its transportation to the dealer; the remaining emissions occur during driving once its new owner takes possession”

I personally like hybrids. I'm a technology freak and the first Prius a friend got I was straight under it, on it and in it - seeing how it worked. His wife came out and said “please don't let him take it apart”

But I think there's a reason all the taxis aren't Prius's
As long as it's under warranty, and the high resale hold up you do OK.
I can see on a high mileage car, when things like Inverters, steering motors, ecu's and batteries start to get weak they're not going to be something you can easily fix in your driveway.

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  Reply # 1025002 14-Apr-2014 16:53 Send private message

Sidestep: But I think there's a reason all the taxis aren't Prius's


1. The initial investment required when existing cars still have life in them (but you'll notice there are more and more Prius taxis about as they die)
2. They are too small to comfortably fit 4 adult passengers - this is a bit of a problem especially if all 4 are larger folk

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  Reply # 1025022 14-Apr-2014 17:21 Send private message

I suppose the cost of driving (including city parking) is offset against savings in time.

As I start and finish work early and avoid the traffic congestion the time to and from home to work is 30 minutes each way by car. Using public transport (train) would involve 15 minutes walking to station, wait 10 minutes for train, 45 minutes trip to city, 12 minutes walk to work= 1 hr 22 minutes twice a day, or almost three hours a day against one hour for the car.

I suppose as you get a little older, and start earning a little more, time becomes more important than the money costs.



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1025028 14-Apr-2014 17:30 Send private message

Sidestep: 
I can see on a high mileage car, when things like Inverters, steering motors, ecu's and batteries start to get weak they're not going to be something you can easily fix in your driveway.



It's already happening - while the ubiquitous OBD scanners might help diagnose some problems - and the internet can be a wealth of useful information (but also some diabolically inaccurate information), it's getting harder.  Good luck trying to service a borg-warner mechatronics unit on a VW DSG box - they seem to be a very expensive replacement only component with limited life.  I assume that Ford use the same or similar Borg Warner units in their new direct-shift boxes.  Same with injectors on common-rail diesels, injectors non-serviceable, rated for x cycles which works out at 200,000km or less, $1200 or so each, so a $5k maintenance job hanging over your head. Sure - they might last longer - and they might not last as long as rated.  Old style diesels - injector rebuild cost is about $60 each.  Cars now with "self-adjusting" rear calipers - you can't change the pads without using a service program to retract the pistons by the servos that do the "auto adjustment", and only your franchise dealer will have that tool - so you can bet a $40 DIY job just became $250.  And it just keeps going on.  I'm probably going to give up - next car might be a new car, and I'll just flick them off before warranty expires.  Surrender like most other people have.
They've (auto makers) got it well figured out now - there's far more money in it for them if they can sell a car twice over it's lifetime than once, so they're working as hard as they can to lock customers in.

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  Reply # 1025037 14-Apr-2014 17:50 Send private message

Fred99:
Sidestep: 
I can see on a high mileage car, when things like Inverters, steering motors, ecu's and batteries start to get weak they're not going to be something you can easily fix in your driveway.



It's already happening - while the ubiquitous OBD scanners might help diagnose some problems - and the internet can be a wealth of useful information (but also some diabolically inaccurate information), it's getting harder.  Good luck trying to service a borg-warner mechatronics unit on a VW DSG box - they seem to be a very expensive replacement only component with limited life.  I assume that Ford use the same or similar Borg Warner units in their new direct-shift boxes.  Same with injectors on common-rail diesels, injectors non-serviceable, rated for x cycles which works out at 200,000km or less, $1200 or so each, so a $5k maintenance job hanging over your head. Sure - they might last longer - and they might not last as long as rated.  Old style diesels - injector rebuild cost is about $60 each.  Cars now with "self-adjusting" rear calipers - you can't change the pads without using a service program to retract the pistons by the servos that do the "auto adjustment", and only your franchise dealer will have that tool - so you can bet a $40 DIY job just became $250.  And it just keeps going on.  I'm probably going to give up - next car might be a new car, and I'll just flick them off before warranty expires.  Surrender like most other people have.
They've (auto makers) got it well figured out now - there's far more money in it for them if they can sell a car twice over it's lifetime than once, so they're working as hard as they can to lock customers in.


Actually with my trusty OBD11 code reader and the internet I've had some decent successes.
A modern car's becoming a collection of modular sub systems, often literally plugged into each other, and they'll often accurately self diagnose the area of concern.
Underneath the computers the mechanical parts are still the same basic designs.
Full workshop manuals are easy to get (usually for free) online, and contain step by step diagnostic routines and directions on repairs right down to torque settings for every nut and bolt.
Injection systems easier to diagnose than the old carbureted cars were in days of yore.
Used to be lucky if 1 in 5 was correctly set up..

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  Reply # 1025115 14-Apr-2014 20:43 Send private message

Reanalyse: I suppose the cost of driving (including city parking) is offset against savings in time.

As I start and finish work early and avoid the traffic congestion the time to and from home to work is 30 minutes each way by car.
Using public transport (train) would involve 15 minutes walking to station, wait 10 minutes for train, 45 minutes trip to city, 12 minutes walk to work= 1 hr 22 minutes twice a day, or almost three hours a day against one hour for the car.


I can see the logic in your particular case, but it's different if you have a bus going almost door-to-door with the use of bus priority lanes on congested roads. I count myself lucky to have that.

For me, though, it's not so much time or cost but doing my bit to reduce congestion. If everyone chose to drive a car to work then everyone's commute would be a lot slower.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1027193 18-Apr-2014 08:31 Send private message

I flicked through the thread and nobody covered the capital cost of the vehicle.

If you spend $30k on a car and have a mortgage, 6% of 30k is $1800 per year.

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  Reply # 1027194 18-Apr-2014 08:56 Send private message

To me driving is a life style choice and a necessity choice, I am disabled and it is just easier for me to go by car, public transport is very very disabled unfriendly. It is not cheap but it is a life style choice I would make despite the disability.

As for buying cars, if you cannot pay cash do not put it on your mortgage unless you can split the payments or pay it early without penalty. Most mortgages are 10 years plus and the interest on a car over that period would be big. If you need a loan negotiate
most dealers will give true interest free to ensure a sale and take it over say 5 years.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 1027230 18-Apr-2014 10:14 Send private message

KiwiNZ: As for buying cars, if you cannot pay cash do not put it on your mortgage unless you can split the payments or pay it early without penalty. Most mortgages are 10 years plus and the interest on a car over that period would be big. If you need a loan negotiate
most dealers will give true interest free to ensure a sale and take it over say 5 years.


I think the previous poster's point - which is actually very valid - is that there is an opportunity cost arising from buying a car instead of using that money to pay down debt. In my case I don't have any debt, but the money that I sink into a car is money that would otherwise yield about 3% after tax if I were to put it into a term deposit or savings account.

Of course, as you say, this doesn't matter if you can get an zero or very low interest finance deal when purchasing the vehicle.

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  Reply # 1027248 18-Apr-2014 11:29 Send private message

KiwiNZ: To me driving is a life style choice and a necessity choice, I am disabled and it is just easier for me to go by car, public transport is very very disabled unfriendly. It is not cheap but it is a life style choice I would make despite the disability.

This. My expenses on driving exceed those I've seen listed here; but I enjoy it and the expense is worth that enjoyment.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1027739 19-Apr-2014 15:26 Send private message

The wife has just updated our banking so ive got a few figures for the last year

1997 Honda Orthia
12289.2km traveled (11km/l average)
$2385.49 worth of Gas
$550.89 for maintenance (tires, oil/filter etc)
$375.45 for WOF/Rego
$665.33 for Insurance
=$0.32 per km

2007 Honda Jazz (owned since September 2012)
14088.0 km traveled (15.2km/l average)
$1968.74 worth of Gas
$695.39 for maintenance (brake pads and discs, oil/filter etc)
$49.00 for WOF (haven't had to do the rego yet)
$818.73 for Insurance
=$0.25 per km

The Jazz does more km than the orthia as i go out of town for work about 20-25 weeks a year so it goes to work on a Monday and comes back on a Friday, where as the jazz gets driven by the wife every day, and when im not out of town i drive it.

They are pretty accurate figure's, and depreciation isnt a huge factor as going off current values of those cars with higher km etc they dont drop too much

If i were to take public transport i would have to leave at about 610am and would get to work at 740am so an hour and a half at a cost of $13.50, and getting home i would leave at 400pm and get home at 536pm at a cost of $11.60 for a total of $25.10 and about 3hous of my time. Thats 1 ferry and 1/2 buses each way. It might be cheaper with a concession card etc.

For me driving is a necessity, i live out by the airport and work in Devenport so i have a 65km round trip a day. which works out to be $16.25 there and back in the Jazz and $20.80 in the Orthia. It takes me 35 minutes to get to work and about 40-60 mins traffic dependent.

It may be different for others who have to figure parking or who live closer to work/better public routes. But to me its the time factor, it takes half the time to drive as it does to catch public transport.

If i could use public transport/bike easily i would



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  Reply # 1027800 19-Apr-2014 17:24 Send private message

Jase2985: The wife has just updated our banking so ive got a few figures for the last year

1997 Honda Orthia
12289.2km traveled (11km/l average)
$2385.49 worth of Gas
$550.89 for maintenance (tires, oil/filter etc)
$375.45 for WOF/Rego
$665.33 for Insurance
=$0.32 per km

2007 Honda Jazz (owned since September 2012)
14088.0 km traveled (15.2km/l average)
$1968.74 worth of Gas
$695.39 for maintenance (brake pads and discs, oil/filter etc)
$49.00 for WOF (haven't had to do the rego yet)
$818.73 for Insurance
=$0.25 per km

The Jazz does more km than the orthia as i go out of town for work about 20-25 weeks a year so it goes to work on a Monday and comes back on a Friday, where as the jazz gets driven by the wife every day, and when im not out of town i drive it.

They are pretty accurate figure's, and depreciation isnt a huge factor as going off current values of those cars with higher km etc they dont drop too much

If i were to take public transport i would have to leave at about 610am and would get to work at 740am so an hour and a half at a cost of $13.50, and getting home i would leave at 400pm and get home at 536pm at a cost of $11.60 for a total of $25.10 and about 3hous of my time. Thats 1 ferry and 1/2 buses each way. It might be cheaper with a concession card etc.

For me driving is a necessity, i live out by the airport and work in Devenport so i have a 65km round trip a day. which works out to be $16.25 there and back in the Jazz and $20.80 in the Orthia. It takes me 35 minutes to get to work and about 40-60 mins traffic dependent.

It may be different for others who have to figure parking or who live closer to work/better public routes. But to me its the time factor, it takes half the time to drive as it does to catch public transport.

If i could use public transport/bike easily i would


From those figures it seems you don't take it in for a "annual" service schedule? 

I am beginning to think that for a cheap older car say from Turners as they are cheaper than dealers and we don't like dealers.  $8k car, one could do without maintenance stuff othjer than the oil and filters and pads and tyres etc ...  B/c the service costs will add up to the cost of the car.  But for more expensive cars maybe it is useful.  Ie - in case the radiator goes or the engine overheats or the gearbox needs to be rebuilt.

To be anal - the set of tyres bought last yr would distort the figure.  B/c a set should last 3-4yrs for the average owner.  And after 6yrs (6yrs or 100k whichever lesser) you do the timing belts.  Going by Toyota dealer in Wellington they want $1000+ for just a Camry.  So that gets averaged per year of the 6yrs.    And there is the 3yr for the drive belts. 

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  Reply # 1027803 19-Apr-2014 17:30 Send private message

No we dont i do a lot of the servicing work myself

Anything major like a cambelt we will take it to the mechanic, it just so happened that the orthia had its service (all the belts etc) in the previous 12 months (ie before may 2012) and that was about 750 for that. The Jazz is going in for its 100k service in the next few months so we are looking at about $1000 for that.

but those sort of costs are 2-3 yearly costs, as are things like tires so they dont actually equate to much per year.



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  Reply # 1027806 19-Apr-2014 17:33 Send private message

What we found is esp with Euro cars even a modestly priced not much if any more than a Toyota.  Is that they cream in service.  B/c the trans, there is no dipstick so you have to take it in unless you jack up the car all all 4 corners so it's flat and then pump in the (expensive VW) oil and then note the temperature when no oil leaks. 

But yeah for the common user - even for a Toyota.  The most avg person cannot do service themselves so it would be a lot higher.  $100 for a oil change isn't it on the market.

Cambelt maybe $200/yr and $100/yr for the drive belts.  Going by their 3 and 6 or 2.5 and 5yr intervals - drive belt and cambelts resp. 

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