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Topic # 18081 26-Dec-2007 20:38 Send private message

Hi Guys

We are going to be building a two storied house in Tauranga.

Basically a bedroom office enteranceway with lounge dining kitchen downstairs and outside patio area.

Upstairs are more bedrooms home theatre room and an outside deck.

The wish list is to have reasonable level of sound downstairs 5.1 in the lounge, rest downstairs mainly background music. Upstairs in home theatre room, maybe 7.1. rest of area upstairs is mainly background music.

T. V throughout the house.

I am an old stereo nut with Linn turntable, Quad amplifier and B&W speakers way out of touch with newer technologies.

We do have to allow for alarms, phone, internet, throughout house.

Has anyone had experiences with satellite T.V, non Sky Freeview in the BOP?.

Any ideas with "wiring" and "easy to use" systems greatly appreciated.

Thanks



Warrenz

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Reply # 102345 30-Dec-2007 22:12 Send private message


If in doubt run cat5e.   
You can run all the specific stuff you want or 'future proof' everything with dozens of needless formats coaxs...  
When I do it, i figure you can't go wrong with an extra cat5.   

ps.   Spec all that stuff FIRST. Before you build the house ( i guess thats what you want to know right? )  Else you'll spend money on stuff you dont need and will never be used.

BDFL
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Reply # 104173 11-Jan-2008 11:05 Send private message

I moved this discussion from the "Geekzone" forum to the Home Theatre forum.

People won't have much luck getting replies if the posts are in the wrong forum!




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  Reply # 104190 11-Jan-2008 11:56 Send private message

Search on some of my threads you will find comments on this in the past. But basic points provide a entral comms closet to place a RJ45 patch panel logical places are in the garage if its part of the lower floor, or in a cupboard under the stairs. Run plenty of Cat5e, I recommend a minumum of 12 ethernet points in a 3bedroom house, ideally more. A 4-5bed house I normally feed 24points into. Dont install BT phone sockets anywhere, do the whole thing on Cat5e with RJ45s. Dont forget power to the comms cupboard. The secuty will go there aswell.

I normally mount a wall rackmounting patch panel in the comms closet, in the same rack mount install a 16 way FastEthernet Switch. This is also where your ADSL router will go and your phone circuits terminate direct from the Demarc. I have designed a phone termination panel that has an integral wired DSL filter and RJ45s for patching phone circuits to the patch panel along with a security loop and test sockets.

Normally I provide two RJ45s per bedroom, one beside the bed, one where the TV will/might go. Each entertainment area provide at least 2 RJ45's, Office 2 or 3, Kitchen 1, dinning room is often where at least 1 is recommended. I also place one in a high up location with power that would be a logical WiFi AP point to give good coverage of the main living area.

I normally provide one permantly wired phone socket within the kitchen bench (and power). This is normally the primary phone or DECT basestation in most homes, so I wire it inside the cupboard, and provide a small hole in the benchtop for the RJ11 and DC to pop through and the basestation sits ontop, saves the clutter of the powerpack on the kitchen bench.

You also need heaps of RG6 coax. 3 or ideally 4 for each entertainment area, 1 for each bedroom, possibly 2 for the Masterbed. All these should go to either the same comms closet or if that is far from the roof area I normaly place it in the ceiling space or often a PDL flush mount switchboard in a top floor hall is fine, remember to provide power just incase. You will need two runs of coax to the roof for both a dish and a UHF antenna. Sky/FreeView sat obvioulsy need the dish, Tauranga should have good DTT coverage, so a UHF antenna is needed there. Duobond coax is fine, use the Sky spec'd one, some are recommending quad shield for the DTT service, however from experience in Aus it seems that duobond is fine, most interference comes in via the antenna itself.

Finally you will need two cat5e runs from the comms cupboard to the telecom demarc point. I also would run a RG6 coax to the demarc back to the comms cupboard or to the coax distribution area, if they are sited differently I normaly run it to the comms cupboard then run a wayline between the two sites. The reason for this coax, is that if one day in the distant future a GPON (FTTH) should roll down your street then along with one cat5 for phones from the ONT (Optical Network Termination) you will also need one for an ethernet port and possibly cable TV on the coax. GPON networks not only deliver Gigbit data they also can deliver cableTV on the same fibre, so worth planning for.

This is the basics for broadband, and TV requirements, other things you will need to concider is distrubted sound and video, but my personal view is that media servers/clients (using the ethernet) are the only real solution, some of that is still a little immiture, but give it a couple of years and your LAN will be ready for it.

I dont know anyone in the Tauranga area that does this work. Most Sparkies will happly pull the cable for you when wiring the mains, but only sparkies with training and who specialise in data work will happily terminate it off in a satisfactory manner.

Edit, and then there are the HT requirements, obviously the cat5e and coax is dealt with as an entertainment area above, but there are the speaker cables, if you cannot decide if you want 5.1 or 7.1 then place wiring for both sets of rears, costs only a few bucks but gives you options in future, means you can readily experiment with side or rear wall mounted rears. Also dont forget a RG59 feed for the sub, and supply both component video and HDMI to PJs. Along with cat5e to the rear of the gear, place one in the floor near the seating position (along with a power point) never no what the future may bring.


Cyril

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  Reply # 104196 11-Jan-2008 12:20 Send private message

That post needs to be a sticky.

"How to correctly wire your house!"

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  Reply # 104284 11-Jan-2008 18:24 Send private message

Wow thanks for sticky Steve.

Here is a house I did recently, its still for sale if you have a cool $1.6M. Its wired pretty much as described above, with 24 Cat5e outlets and 15 coax feeds. The comms closet is in the basement in a cupboard beside the laundry.

If you run through the picture series you will find the Home Theatre on the last picture, there are also two other entertainment centres one in the main lounge, and the other in the master bedroom lounge. Both of these are wired with cat5e and coax at lower cabinet level, and from there component video, audio and HDMI is cabled to panel TV level at 1200mm from the floor.

Along with a dish mounted in a conceled point the house comes with the HT gear by negotiation. This consists of a top of the line Marantz AVR and DVD, and Jamo speaker package including a 250W sub, the PJ is an Infocus.

Outdoor speakers are fitted to both front and rear decks, the cables for them arrive at the AV area in the main lounge.

Cheers
Cyril

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  Reply # 104518 13-Jan-2008 14:39 Send private message

HDMI distribution needs 2 cat5's so I would up the count to the TVs by 2 since the cable is so cheap. I havent seen any matrix switches for hdmi that are affordable yet, and even component + audio ones are several grand. Splitters for both are pretty cheap and we should see a whole lot of new gear for it come out soon enough.

Media centers are not there yet, and if you want to distribute a skybox or whatever then you want component at least.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 104992 15-Jan-2008 15:05 Send private message

Hi Cyril, I didn't ask the question, but that's basically the same kind of information I'm working on for wiring my place.

Cat 6 is in my plan as I want to be able to scale to 10Gig should the desire arise later down the line.
I've been mulling over RG58/RG6 coax aswell, I know they're different and one is a better grade than the other, but I don't know enough on the cable to know (any advice?).

Also my other big stickling point is the faceplates.  Clipsal, PDL, Amdex, etc.etc.etc.  Apparently PDL now owns Clipsal but is continuing that product line, and Amdex is different again.  Also tooled vs toolless RJ45's.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Amdex as they appear to have a wider range of options, ie: RCA's for stereo, F-Type passthroughs, etc.etc, but I know PDL's also brought out some stuff in that range too, so the debate is what brand of faceplates to use, and what options do they have?  From memory I'm pretty sure the Amdex goes to 6 port aswell whereas I've only seen up to 4 port for PDL.


My current plans are essentially retrofitting. 4 Network cables to virtually every room, one, maybe two runs of Coax. Current plan is to only half populate the wall ports and then replace the faceplates as/when demand grows. ie: all network, 2 coax, 2 network/phone, all 6 ports wired, etc.etc. Cabling underfloor and going back to the hallway cupboard which will in turn also be becoming home to the patch panel and my servers (gets them out of my room). In my case also planning on running ventilation drawing cooler air up from under the house, through the cupboard to cool the servers, and exhausting it into the roof cavity.

Any hints/tips/suggestions welcomed, especially in choosing the brand of faceplates.

Thx.
Jp.

PS: Plans are also to run speaker cable up into the roof in the lounge for the surround sound speakers, but thats for sorting after I get the rest done.




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  Reply # 104994 15-Jan-2008 15:24 Send private message

You must not use RG58 its 50ohms, also dont use RG59 except if you plan to run video its easier to terminate than RG6 unless you use crimp RCA's. You must use RG6 for all antenna and LBand Satellite feeds, you should ensure its Sky approved duobond. or better. I always just use duobond, its the most common stock at mastertrade you can get it for around 80c/meter.

Never used Amdex plates other than on sites were it previously existed. I personally prefer PDL and yes the 600series does have a 6hole plate. The clipsal mechs fall out of the plates all the time avoid at all cost. You can get most mechs in PDL 600, although a RCA pass though does not exist only soldier, which suits me.


Has seen problems with tool less RJ45s, but I never use them, the tool is not expensive, from the sounds of it you will get your moneys worth out of it.

You say 6runs, 2 all network, 2coax and 2phone/network, I assume from the last point (2phone/network) you somehow will split phone and ethernet, why, just run them all as full ethernet, and on a couple or four spare ports of your patch panel wire the phone line to the centre pair, then you can just patch the phone to them at will.

Ensure the air intake will not allow insects and vermin to enter the system I prefer to just pull the air out the top into the roof space with the air entering the closet via under the door or a vent in the door, this assumes house temp is low enough.


Last point, when looming cat5/6 dont use tight cable ties, or instead I use insulation tape taking care not to wrap the cables too tight.

When pulling both Cat5/6 and RG6 ensure you never kink the cable or pull it tight around bends. With RG6 always pull it off the roll on a proper cable handler or make a suitable handler so that the it pulls off as it went on the reel, never off the side.


Cyril


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  Reply # 104995 15-Jan-2008 15:44 Send private message

Just a quick question Cryril7 - what do you normally use to connect the incoming PSTN lines to the patch panel? I've seen a few branded home distribution kits that have a nice unit with 2 x incoming PSTN lines, RJ45 test point, connectors for an alarm to work as a line grabber and something like 6 extension outputs to run to the jackpoints. If you're going to run say 12 jackpoints around a medium size house you can obviously wire the other 4 ports on a 16 port patch panel directly to this to this and have quite a tidy installation. I haven't seen these units available by themselves however. What do you recommend?



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  Reply # 105010 15-Jan-2008 16:26 Send private message

cyril7: You must not use RG58 its 50ohms, also dont use RG59 except if you plan to run video its easier to terminate than RG6 unless you use crimp RCA's. You must use RG6 for all antenna and LBand Satellite feeds, you should ensure its Sky approved duobond. or better. I always just use duobond, its the most common stock at mastertrade you can get it for around 80c/meter.

Ahh.. knew there was a difference somewhere. I'm planning to have it scaleable enough that *if* Telstra/Clear/Saturn ever extend the cable network I can run the cable back to the patch and out for Cablemodem/TV/etc.  So RG6 it is.

Never used Amdex plates other than on sites were it previously existed. I personally prefer PDL and yes the 600series does have a 6hole plate. The clipsal mechs fall out of the plates all the time avoid at all cost. You can get most mechs in PDL 600, although a RCA pass though does not exist only soldier, which suits me.

Has seen problems with tool less RJ45s, but I never use them, the tool is not expensive, from the sounds of it you will get your moneys worth out of it.

OK, thanks for that, I knew they went up to 4, but if they do 6 aswell that pretty much decides it. 

You say 6runs, 2 all network, 2coax and 2phone/network, I assume from the last point (2phone/network) you somehow will split phone and ethernet, why, just run them all as full ethernet, and on a couple or four spare ports of your patch panel wire the phone line to the centre pair, then you can just patch the phone to them at will.


That's what I'm planning, I probably worded it a bit badly though. The phone/network was an example of upgrading the faceplate to do whatever i want. ie: add another network port, second phoneline, Sky outlet, etc. But I'll probably only install with a 2 port faceplate for most rooms and then change it later and hook up the spare cable runs if I need them.

Ensure the air intake will not allow insects and vermin to enter the system I prefer to just pull the air out the top into the roof space with the air entering the closet via under the door or a vent in the door, this assumes house temp is low enough.


Current plan is to draw from under the house, possibly using 1 or 2 inline ducting motors. Toying with the idea of hooking a DVS filter onto it to take care of dust/insect problems etc, and depending on how the motors are designed I wouldn't mind trying to hook a timer up to it to reverse cycle every so often to avoid the need to get under the house to clear the dust off them.  It's going to be cooling 2/3 machines, with carpet to under the door, so I need to draw cooler air in, as cool as possible ideally.

Last point, when looming cat5/6 dont use tight cable ties, or instead I use insulation tape taking care not to wrap the cables too tight.

When pulling both Cat5/6 and RG6 ensure you never kink the cable or pull it tight around bends. With RG6 always pull it off the roll on a proper cable handler or make a suitable handler so that the it pulls off as it went on the reel, never off the side.


Thanks for that, good points, the kinking cable/tight bends is pretty standard, but I expect there'll probably be a few people reading this so it doesn't hurt to point it out.  Current plan is likely to be deciding on a central run area, cable tie them, and then hang them from hooks along the run. It should also allow me to add more cables to the bundle by just cabletying them on to the group if I need to add anything.   I was originally planning one outlet point per room, but the comments about two (next to bed, and wherever tv is) is a good point, as it essentially means opposite sides of the room.  There's enough access under the house I should be able to do that too without too much of a problem, and can probably spec back a bit on how many cables I run to each outlet point.

Thanks again. :)
Jp.




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  Reply # 105016 15-Jan-2008 16:59 Send private message

jpwise: Ahh.. knew there was a difference somewhere. I'm planning to have it scaleable enough that *if* Telstra/Clear/Saturn ever extend the cable network I can run the cable back to the patch and out for Cablemodem/TV/etc.  So RG6 it is.


TelstraClear won't hook their TV up to any existing cable or structured cable solution - even if you use the identical quad sheild that they use. I know somebody who wired up his new concrete floor house with quad shield RG6 to get TCL turn up and want to run their cable around everywhere so he told them where to go.

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  Reply # 105026 15-Jan-2008 17:59 Send private message

Hi, I made up a panel that I intend to commercialise at some point soon, it fits over a standard flush box here is a picture of it.





The line input is the top middle IDC, the RJ11 is a test port and ADSL modem jack. The right hand IDC is line2. Line1 goes through the isolation switch to a MM3200B DSL filter that fits behind the board in the flushbox. The left middle IDC is a security panel loop the return is then distributed to the center pair of the RJ45s and the lower IDC. The RJ45s let you patch the phone to your patch panel without consuming patch panel space. You wire to the IDC's via the larger holes in the board.


I have heard of folk having TCL refuse to wire there homes even after they have used quad shield, I have done a few that TCL latter happily wired upto however the home owners did have to get me to come and chat nicely to the tech, I could use other language to describe him, but eventally after me asking exactly what his issue with the wiring was he gave in, he put up all the normal ingress arguments, but had to concede that the wiring was well to standard, he did have to call base to get approval, I dont know what conversations went on there. Personally I would have told them to take a running jump.

Cyril

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  Reply # 105027 15-Jan-2008 18:07 Send private message

Hi Cyril

That's very informative - many thanks. I am just starting to get my head around cabling options, as I have grand visions of cabling the place I am living is. One question for you though - I note you recommend multiple runs of cat 5e. Is there any reason to go with cat 5e rather than cat 6, as I understand that cat 6 is backwards compatible and has higher bandwith so should be more future-proof?

Sorry if this is a silly question.

Cheers

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  Reply # 105029 15-Jan-2008 18:42 Send private message

Cat5e is designed to do GigE and from my experience does this with ease right up to its length limit of 100m and more. Cat6 is spec'd to acheive higher performance, but as yet I have seen no evidence that there is any advantage over cat5e in practical terms for GigE.

10GigE is another kettle of fish, and if you think that there is some application on the horizon that you will be using in your home (rather than a datacentre) that might require then go ahead and go Cat6.

Cyril

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  Reply # 105030 15-Jan-2008 18:44 Send private message

My guess would be price, Cat 5e is cheaper than Cat 6, and can still do Gigabit quite happily.  If you want to do 10-Gig later down the line you'd need Cat 6, but realistically your average joe home user wouldn't have any need for 10-Gig, let alone the fact you'd need to sacrifice an arm, and maybe a leg at the current hardware prices.  In a few years I plan on moving to 10-Gig for network storage machines so I'm planning for the need when it becomes more affordable.

Jp.




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