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  Reply # 646171 26-Jun-2012 08:46 Send private message

maverick: There is nothing wrong with doing a wholesale service, but some things that customers need to be aware of are several layers of overheads, these can add delays in faults , porting etc, great you are doing your front line customer support but as an example if your offering porting, you don't have this direct yourself, you had this off to 2Talk who will do it for you correct ?,


That's all very valid, but one point I will raise is that 2talk have a very low level of support to end customers. For deployments where a knowledgeable VoIP person won't always be available to diagnose issues, going through an experienced reseller (someone who has been doing VoIP installs and reselling 2talk for many years) who charges a bit more can be a much more viable option.

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  Reply # 646205 26-Jun-2012 09:24 Send private message

johny99: Cheers Maverick that post was a game changer


Agreed.

It was a great big pile of FUD dished up.

When I looked at this issue as a reseller I contacted to primary providers.  One couldn't get their sales people to call me back, one got me on line and has supported me with technical support and business issues for over a year.

The over whelming feedback I've had from my customers is that they accept that from time to time they get call drop outs, which more often than not are fixed by just power cycling their equipment (which is something I aim to automate as sites that are rebooted from time to time seem to be fairly rock solid).

My customers simply wouldn't trade the feature set.  

Personally I love the 'Yes, nothing' factor.  When  a customer asks me if they have "blar", I can just say "Yes", when they ask what it costs "Nothing more, it's included" and they just love that, but not as much as I do!

With respect to reseller issues.  I can fully understand why companies don't put 2Talk on the door.  For many providers, 2talk has been a stepping stone.  I know of at least one provider who was working with them and has now grown their business to the point they can pick up carrier interconnect via another wholesale carrier, reducing their costs and increasing their profits.

My observation is that Ray and Jude (2Talk) drive technical learning.  They don't just spoon feed anyone with answers, they provide a 'take it of leave it' platform and are very fast to provide technical assistance on issues that are clearly in their domain.  However they don't just spoon feed idiot questions for people who clearly have the skills but just haven't put in the work yet.

Mav is right.  There are layers on layers in this stuff and you do have to watch that your latency doesn't get up.  That's very much what SIP peering is all about and something we should all be learning about and getting into.  ENUM for anyone who wants to do some reading.

Bottom line here for the OP... Mate, last time I looked, both providers offered a $11.50 entry service.  Get a SIP device, sign up with both and to a technology/business evaluation and find out first hand what's what.

While there are many good comments on this forum, I'm sure it's very obvious that many people have vested interests here, myself included.

Don Gould
Think Design Print
Authorised 2Talk Reseller










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  Reply # 646279 26-Jun-2012 11:10 Send private message

DonGould:
The over whelming feedback I've had from my customers is that they accept that from time to time they get call drop outs, which more often than not are fixed by just power cycling their equipment (which is something I aim to automate as sites that are rebooted from time to time seem to be fairly rock solid). 

A reboot? What's that? Says my customers running SRP527 on WxC Xnet Fusion :)




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  Reply # 646281 26-Jun-2012 11:13 Send private message

[sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]





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  Reply # 646285 26-Jun-2012 11:19 Send private message

Yeah. Reboots. Linksys WRP400 etc. I labelled it for the family to reset all the time. I reckon those earlier Linksys ATA's were as flaky as a cornflake.....




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  Reply # 646287 26-Jun-2012 11:21 Send private message

hairy1: Yeah. Reboots. Linksys WRP400 etc. I labelled it for the family to reset all the time. I reckon those earlier Linksys ATA's were as flaky as a cornflake.....


Coffeebaron comments was sarcastic, as in buy cheap ATA get cheap ATA performance.





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  Reply # 646290 26-Jun-2012 11:25 Send private message

Yep. I used to think reboots were a normal way of life before I got decent VOIP gear...




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  Reply # 646346 26-Jun-2012 12:31 Send private message

freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]



Totally agree with you.  I've been fighting with the new SPA100 range, as have others.  The low end stuff does seem to have real issues.

It takes 4 settings to make the SIP client on my mobile work, where as it's a whole script for the ATA.

Getting help from Cisco is a mine field in my personal experience.  While the guys on the phone are very nice, very helpful and do get back to you, it takes days and days just to get a simple software update and having to click on what feels like an endless number of links.

If you're building a network with 1000 customers then there's some profit in that, but when you're dealing at the edge in a place like Christchurch where there's $10 profit in 3 units it quickly gets to the point where people just don't want to deal with this technology.

I'm very interested to see what happens when Telestra and Telecom enter the market with their VoIP offerings, it could be a tough time for some vendors.

D





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  Reply # 646368 26-Jun-2012 13:11 Send private message

DonGould:
freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]



Totally agree with you.  I've been fighting with the new SPA100 range, as have others.  The low end stuff does seem to have real issues.

It takes 4 settings to make the SIP client on my mobile work, where as it's a whole script for the ATA.

Getting help from Cisco is a mine field in my personal experience.  While the guys on the phone are very nice, very helpful and do get back to you, it takes days and days just to get a simple software update and having to click on what feels like an endless number of links.

If you're building a network with 1000 customers then there's some profit in that, but when you're dealing at the edge in a place like Christchurch where there's $10 profit in 3 units it quickly gets to the point where people just don't want to deal with this technology.

I'm very interested to see what happens when Telestra and Telecom enter the market with their VoIP offerings, it could be a tough time for some vendors.

D



I think you've answered your own question.... BYO support is a recipe for burning endless hours chasing stuff down. Every carrier will produce their own device that they know and can support, and customers will have to connect to that.... for the next 10 years anyway, until BYO stops being DOD (dance of death)




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  Reply # 646374 26-Jun-2012 13:18 Send private message

DonGould:
freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]



Totally agree with you.  I've been fighting with the new SPA100 range, as have others.  The low end stuff does seem to have real issues.

It takes 4 settings to make the SIP client on my mobile work, where as it's a whole script for the ATA.

Getting help from Cisco is a mine field in my personal experience.  While the guys on the phone are very nice, very helpful and do get back to you, it takes days and days just to get a simple software update and having to click on what feels like an endless number of links.

If you're building a network with 1000 customers then there's some profit in that, but when you're dealing at the edge in a place like Christchurch where there's $10 profit in 3 units it quickly gets to the point where people just don't want to deal with this technology.

I'm very interested to see what happens when Telestra and Telecom enter the market with their VoIP offerings, it could be a tough time for some vendors.

D




And here lies my concern around deployment models Don, as an industry we are looking to replace fixed line PSTN services with a SIP solution, that means this solution need to mimic the basic functionality of the current analogue services as well as bringing the feature sets that the the TDM network can never match, to do that yes you do need to do a lot of work and actually understand the full requirement around what is already the PTC requirements around telephony and how this reflects back into the ICA (Interconnect agreements) that carriers have in place for PTC 331 interconnects, Cisco provides a huge ability to be able to support what is required, 4 settings I'm afraid doesn't cut it for a fixed line replacement service, but getting it right takes time and an understanding of what these parameters do, don't blame the equipment if its actually the back end processes that could be causing the problem. 

To be fair to you though unless you work in a carrier you will never fullly understand the requirements to comply with the ICA's nor should you you would hope that the carrier does this for you,

However you just seem to want to get a dial tone and this is good enough.... and this is why I have a problem with your deployment philosophy, I applaud your enthusiasm but cant abide your methodology and your reasons behind it because IMHO it detracts from the Technology as a whole, what it actually does is compromise the integrity of the Telco environment in NZ by setting the technology up as a poor mans replacement service, i.e doesn't work the same, doesn't sound the same , bit flakey... it isn't when its deployed correctly !!. 

The term cowboys is used a lot in the tradesman industry, we will get to a point where we will have SIP cowboys and then the industry my industry gets a bad name because we allowed bad deployment practises from day one for SIP, just because some think that having dial tone and the ability to make a call in or out is the only requirement doesn't make it right and as Service providers we have obligation to maintain the integrity of the Telco network in NZ.

I know you wont agree with that but that's my humble opinion, This is also not a personal attack on you at all Don but probably it appears that way (Mods can kick me if they wish) it is purely based on your methodology so please take my comments that way, 







  

  






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  Reply # 646376 26-Jun-2012 13:19 Send private message

antoniosk:
DonGould:
freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]



Totally agree with you.  I've been fighting with the new SPA100 range, as have others.  The low end stuff does seem to have real issues.

It takes 4 settings to make the SIP client on my mobile work, where as it's a whole script for the ATA.

Getting help from Cisco is a mine field in my personal experience.  While the guys on the phone are very nice, very helpful and do get back to you, it takes days and days just to get a simple software update and having to click on what feels like an endless number of links.

If you're building a network with 1000 customers then there's some profit in that, but when you're dealing at the edge in a place like Christchurch where there's $10 profit in 3 units it quickly gets to the point where people just don't want to deal with this technology.

I'm very interested to see what happens when Telestra and Telecom enter the market with their VoIP offerings, it could be a tough time for some vendors.

D



I think you've answered your own question.... BYO support is a recipe for burning endless hours chasing stuff down. Every carrier will produce their own device that they know and can support, and customers will have to connect to that.... for the next 10 years anyway, until BYO stops being DOD (dance of death)


DOD ... that brought a smile to my face .. Can I use that Laughing




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  Reply # 646381 26-Jun-2012 13:50 Send private message

maverick: (Mods can kick me if they wish)


OT, but I would be very annoyed at that.

As far as I'm concerned this is a discussion forum for talking about such issues. 

The way I see it, you don't know me very well at all and are quite incorrect about my views.

However you have presented yours well and raised quite a number of good points which I think others will value and think about.

There is merit in many of the comments you make.

With direct respect to "Cowboys".  I know a great deal about those being in a smaller city, currently over run by trades people trying to fix stuff for people without much money.

In my view, the best approach is always education, not regulation and limitation, though both go hand in hand.

I very much agree with you about Cisco and the PTC requirements to deliver a until that works in New Zealand.

As far as I'm concerned, the unit, purchased via a New Zealand seller, should have the option to select "New Zealand" as the country of use and then an option for the most common providers or the ability to down load and upload a flat XML file.

The unit should then simply do what it does.  Eg If you set in in bridge mode then is should work - with the first production release I looked at on the latest SPA122 it wouldn't do that.

It should also carry forward the feature sets of the equipment it's replacing. 

This is not 'Cowboy' stuff, it's very normal IT business expectations.

Getting help should be local, not US based.  When a vendor puts up a web site forum they should answer questions in it quickly and not hide their developers behind layers and layers of people.  Again, not 'Cowboy' stuff, just good common sense.

A point that I wonder if you're missing, and I may well be very very very wrong, is that if providers don't get SIP dialtone right then users are simply going to walk away from it.  Mobile providers have a vested interest in doing this.

Frankly the more I've been looking at this space the more I've been realising that I might be very wrong.  I should be just giving up on PTC dial tone.







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  Reply # 646382 26-Jun-2012 13:53 Send private message

maverick: 
And here lies my concern around deployment models Don, as an industry we are looking to replace fixed line PSTN services with a SIP solution, that means this solution need to mimic the basic functionality of the current analogue services as well as bringing the feature sets that the the TDM network can never match, to do that yes you do need to do a lot of work and actually understand the full requirement around what is already the PTC requirements around telephony and how this reflects back into the ICA (Interconnect agreements) that carriers have in place for PTC 331 interconnects, Cisco provides a huge ability to be able to support what is required, 4 settings I'm afraid doesn't cut it for a fixed line replacement service, but getting it right takes time and an understanding of what these parameters do, don't blame the equipment if its actually the back end processes that could be causing the problem. 

To be fair to you though unless you work in a carrier you will never fullly understand the requirements to comply with the ICA's nor should you you would hope that the carrier does this for you,

However you just seem to want to get a dial tone and this is good enough.... and this is why I have a problem with your deployment philosophy, I applaud your enthusiasm but cant abide your methodology and your reasons behind it because IMHO it detracts from the Technology as a whole, what it actually does is compromise the integrity of the Telco environment in NZ by setting the technology up as a poor mans replacement service, i.e doesn't work the same, doesn't sound the same , bit flakey... it isn't when its deployed correctly !!. 

The term cowboys is used a lot in the tradesman industry, we will get to a point where we will have SIP cowboys and then the industry my industry gets a bad name because we allowed bad deployment practises from day one for SIP, just because some think that having dial tone and the ability to make a call in or out is the only requirement doesn't make it right and as Service providers we have obligation to maintain the integrity of the Telco network in NZ.

I know you wont agree with that but that's my humble opinion, This is also not a personal attack on you at all Don but probably it appears that way (Mods can kick me if they wish) it is purely based on your methodology so please take my comments that way, 
 





Going way OT this isn't a VOIP problem, it's a business deployment problem in technology in New Zealand. I work in building automation and the bane of the industry is smart electricians (this is a gross generalisation but not inaccurate). They drive the market price down which makes deploying quality solutions that are cost competitive very difficult. The hardware and software are only part of the puzzle - quality people and processes cost money.

A lot of providers price themselves way too cheaply which mean they have to cut corners and deploy substandard solutions. In Dons case if there's only $10 margin in it why bother unless it's for a customer who buys a lot of other services? Sounds like a business that it makes no sense to be in.




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  Reply # 646548 26-Jun-2012 18:37 Send private message

freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]





Yeah. Reboots. Linksys WRP400 etc. I labelled it for the family to reset all the time. I reckon those earlier Linksys ATA's were as flaky as a cornflake.....




VFX use spa2102's and WRP400, so not sure what point is being made here.
Whether they connect to VFX or 2talk makes no difference, in fact 2talk's new platform
seems to be rock solid.

Yes I am a 2talk reseller.

Personally I believe that VOIP will not be the replacement for the PSTN voice service at all (sorry VFX, 2talk), it will probably be the mobile nerworks as soon as the main providers get with rest of the world and drop their prices.




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  Reply # 646552 26-Jun-2012 18:42 Send private message

techmeister:
freitasm: [sarcasm]

Let me guess Don... You are still using the Linksys SPA2102?

[/sarcasm]



VFX use spa2102's and WRP400, so not sure what point is being made here.


The point is that DonG spent a fair bit of time last year complaining about his personal experience with a certain ISP and lack of speed, and after some digging the community managed to find the bottleneck was his own equipment, which was limiting speeds to less than half his line was capable.

It comes down to if you are an ISP and let your customers select their own equipment then these customers have to take responsibility as well. 

When VFX provides their equipment you get the guarantee that performance will be adequate to the service being provided. This is not different from old Telecom providing their own handsets with Telepermit stamped on them.

When a VoIP provider comes to the game without having an end to end solution then things will break at some point.





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