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  Reply # 657085 17-Jul-2012 15:16 Send private message

old3eyes: This doesn't look too good for TC TV customers after the merger.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10820068

"Questions follow Australasian media shake-up"



Certainly looks like costs for tv portion of my triple package will rise although i have having difficulty figuring out if Telstra negotiated a lower price with Sky or which stations are sourced from SKY.

on upside - as SKY stick its head and shoulder further above the competition for content provision in NZ as the result of this merger, at least it means they are more likely to be shot between the eye balls by MED.

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  Reply # 657094 17-Jul-2012 15:23 Send private message

D1023319:  Certainly looks like costs for tv portion of my triple package will rise although i have having difficulty figuring out if Telstra negotiated a lower price with Sky or which stations are sourced from SKY.

on upside - as SKY stick its head and shoulder further above the competition for content provision in NZ as the result of this merger, at least it means they are more likely to be shot between the eye balls by MED.


I don't understand.

Who is competing at all?

If you're talking about movies then there's just bucket loads of internet based solutions now.

If you're talking sports then there is no competition at all is there?






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  Reply # 657178 17-Jul-2012 19:12 Send private message

nickb800:
Shadbolt:
nickb800:
antoniosk: Its also worth noting that Tcl privately owns a copper network in the CBD areas of major towns that voda will inherit. This network serves business customers and competes with telecom voice products, and also for data and Internet products too. 


Was this from the Clear days?

Mostly from the Saturn days in Wellington, and TelstraSaturn days in Christchurch. Other cities are mostly TelstraClear era.

Is this copper network distinct from the HFC network or is he just referring to the POTS part of the HFC network?


HFC was laid overhead and a copper telephony network followed in the ground by Saturn, to win TV and telephony business (Cable was later extended to include high speed data). The telephone network rises up power poles to be close to the cable taps, and is joined at the tap at pole height to put service into the house. Cables going to the house are dual type, supplying coax and 2xcopper pairs on the same drop, but physically demarcated in their own sheath. The copper pairs are sheared away to connect to the telephone master socket, while the coax is brought in to where it needs to be consumed for TV and Internet.

At later stages, basic support for centrex-services, basic rates and very rarely primary rates was added from cabinets, although the reach was limited. That was Saturn, and prime focus was consumer followed by business.

Clear focused on business and deployed copper for Frame Relay, POTS, centrex and ISDN services in it's early days, and these are still reasonably available today. In addition ADSL and later VDSL2 (first in NZ) was also made available in the cabinets. The combined entity TCL focuses on all segments, also adding in UCLL and Wholesale products to the mix.




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  Reply # 657182 17-Jul-2012 19:18 Send private message

antoniosk:
nickb800:
Shadbolt:
nickb800:
antoniosk: Its also worth noting that Tcl privately owns a copper network in the CBD areas of major towns that voda will inherit. This network serves business customers and competes with telecom voice products, and also for data and Internet products too. 


Was this from the Clear days?

Mostly from the Saturn days in Wellington, and TelstraSaturn days in Christchurch. Other cities are mostly TelstraClear era.

Is this copper network distinct from the HFC network or is he just referring to the POTS part of the HFC network?


HFC was laid overhead and a copper telephony network followed in the ground by Saturn, to win TV and telephony business (Cable was later extended to include high speed data). The telephone network rises up power poles to be close to the cable taps, and is joined at the tap at pole height to put service into the house. Cables going to the house are dual type, supplying coax and 2xcopper pairs on the same drop, but physically demarcated in their own sheath. The copper pairs are sheared away to connect to the telephone master socket, while the coax is brought in to where it needs to be consumed for TV and Internet.

At later stages, basic support for centrex-services, basic rates and very rarely primary rates was added from cabinets, although the reach was limited. That was Saturn, and prime focus was consumer followed by business.

Clear focused on business and deployed copper for Frame Relay, POTS, centrex and ISDN services in it's early days, and these are still reasonably available today. In addition ADSL and later VDSL2 (first in NZ) was also made available in the cabinets. The combined entity TCL focuses on all segments, also adding in UCLL and Wholesale products to the mix.


Very informative, thanks!

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  Reply # 657370 18-Jul-2012 08:03 Send private message

freitasm: Off topic, but a  very short reply:

POTS (Plain Old Telephone Lines) connect via copper to an exchange. Up until a few years ago only Telecom equipment were allowed inside those exchanges, and Telecom would wholesale access. Recently the Commerce Commission required Telecom to "unbundle the local loop", allowing third party companies to place their own gear inside those exchanges.

Customer could now connect to either a Telecom box, or to a third party box. Slingshot, Orcon, TelstraClear, Vodafone and some others arranged to have their gear installed.

At the same time Telecom (now Chorus, a completely separate company) started rolling out cabinets. Those are distributed around the country and connected to the exchange via fibre. They give a much better performance to customers because the distance to the houses is a lot shorter. DSL performance decreases with distance.

Some of those other companies didn't heed the advice and continued unbundling. However it's not economical for those companies to put their own equipments in cabinets because each cabinet services a much smaller number of households than an exchange, making everything a lot more expensive.

As a result, if you are in a cabinet area you have to connect via wholesale otherwise there'll be performance problems (the third party DSL equipments in exchange often don't work well when there's something between them and the modem, such as a cabinet).

I recommend you read sbiddle's blog for a lot of technical information. Also follow him at @stevebiddle.


Thanks for this. I've created a seperate thread on the NZ Connections' forum around this as I feel it might be better for others who might be in the same situation I am in. Steve is now followed :)




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  Reply # 658273 19-Jul-2012 11:08 Send private message

Okay, to quote my source that actually works for TCL:
I was messing with you, I know how passionate you are :P


Apologies about the rumour mill, needless to say he got me hook line and sinker.

To allay concerns here's another quote taken from ON3 from one of the ON3 admin: 

• It is business as usual until ownership is confirmed. (No changes to what we're currently doing with Steam, Unmetered, ON3 Network or Gaming).

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  Reply # 658293 19-Jul-2012 11:26 Send private message

Now that Telcom has been separated from Chorus.. It's pretty much a service Telco that relies on other companies (Chorus) infrastructure to deliver to customers. This is a similar model to the current VF.

Isn't there a little irony in that when this merger goes ahead VF will be the Telco that has it's own fixed fibre/copper network infrastructure and therefore rely less on Chorus



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  Reply # 658304 19-Jul-2012 11:35 Send private message

Oh, but the People Who Hate Telecom (TM) wouldn't have any other way, would they?

Basically they are happy to dismantle a monopoly, to just see another one being erected, with no control.




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  Reply # 658367 19-Jul-2012 12:36 Send private message

freitasm: Oh, but the People Who Hate Telecom (TM) wouldn't have any other way, would they?

Basically they are happy to dismantle a monopoly, to just see another one being erected, with no control.


You make a good point there.  Maybe we should lobby the ComCom and ask them to force Vodafone to divest themselves of the fiber network.  Chorus 2 anyone??




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  Reply # 658393 19-Jul-2012 13:07 Send private message

old3eyes:
freitasm: Oh, but the People Who Hate Telecom (TM) wouldn't have any other way, would they?

Basically they are happy to dismantle a monopoly, to just see another one being erected, with no control.


You make a good point there.  Maybe we should lobby the ComCom and ask them to force Vodafone to divest themselves of the fiber network.  Chorus 2 anyone??


And a new company who has never and will never be listed on the NZ stock exchange and returns no dividends to normal New Zealanders via their own personal investments or via their (kiwisaver) retirement funds.

"This time around is different, because Chorus is a good corporate citizen and a large number of the 1,917,300 KiwiSaver members have an investment interest in it. Thus, the sharp decline in Chorus' share price over the past week has had a negative impact on the retirement funds of many New Zealanders.This begs the question whether the uncertain regulatory environment does more harm than good, particularly for individuals who benefit from any telecommunications price decrease but also have an investment in Chorus through their KiwiSaver fund."

But no one wants to talk about that now do they.




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  Reply # 658408 19-Jul-2012 13:13 Send private message

old3eyes:
freitasm: Oh, but the People Who Hate Telecom (TM) wouldn't have any other way, would they?

Basically they are happy to dismantle a monopoly, to just see another one being erected, with no control.


You make a good point there.  Maybe we should lobby the ComCom and ask them to force Vodafone to divest themselves of the fiber network.  Chorus 2 anyone??


if the vodafone/TCL fibre network and infrastructure is government sibsidised then yes, since that was the reason for the telecom demerger.


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  Reply # 658643 19-Jul-2012 18:57 Send private message

freitasm: Oh, but the People Who Hate Telecom (TM) wouldn't have any other way, would they?

Basically they are happy to dismantle a monopoly, to just see another one being erected, with no control.


No, I loathe both Telecom and Vodafone. Or is it Chorus and Vodafone I loathe? I just don't know now.

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  Reply # 658720 19-Jul-2012 21:50 Send private message

I posted this on the Internet NZ mailing list... but not everyone gets that as it's a pay wall, and I thought others might be interested in my views...

What of TCL --> VF?

Lighting up my crystal ball and putting on my tinfoil hat, here's my take on the new adventure...

This is fantastic news for consumers and the industry and will be the next chapter in some exciting times.

As others have pointed out, Telstra is the biggest purchaser of capacity on the SCX network.  However, TCL did not bring us the plan value that Telstra delivered to it's .au customers.

While Telstra has all this capacity, the hand off in LA was clearly not up to the mark.

Telstra has some great content in .au, but we don't see it here.  So while Telstra could have brought some great value to the table, it seems all they did was just let the boat float, bob, along and enable poor value in the market.

Telstra also seem to have used the company as little more than a tax exercise with some fancy accounting if the articles in the media are to be believed.

For VF the game is going to be on to drive up APRU.

The only way I can see them being able to do that is delivering New Zealanders some really serious value that's going to cause consumers to be willing to spend more cash on comms.

I can see this meaning making massive loss leading promotions with new hand sets that will let consumers chew data.

VF will need data for hungry consumers, but it's not going to want to line Telecoms pockets to get that data.

So I see them doing a few things.  First they'll throw open the flood gates on the HFC network upload and give consumers the ability to upload content at at least 100mbit and probably more.

VF know the Tbox is a lemon but the VF guys are all over making and marketing branded consumer products.  I expect they'll product a STB which is a cross between a router, wifi AP, TV STB, NAS, VoIP ATA and 'sure cell' with some cleaver software to let you push backups off your mobile devices (phones, tablets, laptops) when ever you're in range and then push those to the cloud in off peek times.

VF will be getting some crash hot data centre space with the TCL deal and I expect them to fill it with servers to provide back ups to those STB/NAS units.

For folk not on the HFC network the STB/NAS will have a USB port for a 4G LTE modem.

Upload is about to become where it's all at in the next 3 years.

UFB is going to take off once consumers start to understand what 50mbits of upload capacity means.

Christchurch has taught people that they need to do back ups.  Every ISP wants consumers to move more data so that they can push the users on to bigger data plans and raise APRU, so we're going to see some serious promotion of products like Crash Plan with consumer education about how to set up your Crash Plan account to put your data on your friends and families computers in a secure way.

I can see ISPs giving away far less trips to Fiji and more content production devices like digital video and still cameras.

As consumers learn about upload they're going to want it everywhere, and what people want in the internet space, people get!

WISPs have been busy helping out the rural folk, but as they finish sorting out that market they'll change focus to service delivery in urban areas.

Currently they're a bit of a rag tag rebel alliance with more focus on the force than the prize.  However, as many have pointed out, FX is growing like crazy and has capacity to burn and will want a way to extend their reach.

WISPs need a point of difference and that difference is upload and that's what they'll go after to win customers.

Chorus isn't going to sit on its hands and loose customers to the mobile networks and WISPs so it will throw open the upload flood gates on the VDSL network or face loosing large numbers of customers.

Chorus has installed the VDSL technology and is fast discovering that consumers aren't moving to UFB because they just haven't had a taste of fast uploads.  They've got the ability to move data for their customers today and unless they start to deliver real value to consumers right now, they're not going to have a hope of driving APRU up before UFB hits town and people move to fibre connections, expecting a lower APRU at the same time.  They need revenue from the VDSL kit now.  They've been hanging out to get $50 more revenue from consumers, but they're going to have to accept $5 and be far more creative to push up to $30 more revenue.  10% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

LTE investment is going to give the mobile guys some real resource that they can sell too.  Having won customers, 2Degress isn't going to want to let them go and it knows the only way to keep customers is keep delivering them more value and focus on driving up APRU.

Judge Henry got it a little wrong, the .us isn't the enemy, the New Zealand consumer is the enemy and it's going to take some serious consumer education by everyone to drive more consumer spend to the telco sector from other areas.

In Auckland we're going to see consumers heading for the office later in the day, or not at all, and clearing morning comms from home.  In Wellington we're going to see commuters clearing morning comms while on the trains.  Consumers are going to eventually move their petrol budget to their comms budget but the providers have to have serious products to sell at sensible price points.  Think 4Gb of mobile data for $10 with consumers chewing up 40Gb a month just in the mobile space.

UFB is going to mean mobile tower infill but the TCL/VF deal is going to mean VF can push 20Gbit to existing towers and then radiate out from there with more serious capacity.

The TCL deal is also going to tip some great talent out of TCL.  While some of that talent will head over seas, some of it's going to stay here and set up new ventures.

Some of these guys, like in any orginisation, have been sitting about for years thinking of cool ideas but not bringing them into reality because they're just a bit to comfortable where they are.  Well that comfort is gone and this will light a fire under them to do something new.

20mbits of upload, with big data caps or free upload, is going to put the frighteners on Sky, keep them honest and make them hungry to deliver some great products to consumers that are good for the market place.

Richard (R2) has demonstrated that you can collect 30Tb of content and broadcast to the world with nothing more than a small van of gear and a bunch of motivated people for not a great deal of gold.

While FX doesn't have its own international capacity and VF's link is still going to be a while off, both camps are going to be keen to get content to push to their own customers and also back at Telecom to best negotiate capacity deals.

This year we'll seen our local church broadcasting audio from its services but with in two years you'll be able to sit at home and watch the service live.  You'll also be able to view catch ups off YouTube. The church will be decked out with remote cameras, being the next infusion of technology to grace the halls.

As this technology becomes main stream in churches it will become common place on sports grounds.  Sky may bring you the big games from the cake tin, but it's going to become possible, with UFB, to get eye balls on all the small events that are important to our community.

Schools have active boards, they've got data projectors in every class room, by the end of next year every school in the country is going to have a blanket of wifi access for BYODs.  SNUP is going to have given schools the ability to move 10Gb around buildings and that work is going to be complete.

This opens up the question of what the sales guys are going to sell the schools next.  It's also going to make schools question how they're going to pay for more technology and the TB's of data that everyone's shouting at them they need.  The answer to that question is simple - eye balls.

Recording history is really important to educators.  They know that we have to record today's events today in order to have great historic records in 100 years time for our children's, children's children to look back at.

Modern life means that just because Mr 9 has a rugby game at 10:30am doesn't mean I'm going to be able to be there to see it.  However if there's one thing I'll pay for, it's the school to have all the technology to capture the match so I can watch it off YouTube in HD on my TV after dinner when I get home from my day at work on Saturday night.

Currently my Mr is 4, but I'm planning our future now to ensure that his grandparents, 450km away, will be able to see his sports games, and you can be assured if I'm doing it then there are any number of other geek parents doing the same.

So all this technology is going to be an easy sell for the sales guys who are going to be hungry for the next big thing to sell.

So while there may have been a perception that we needed TCL to be the great Sky watch dog, the reality is that the technology and market place will be far more effective and keeping Sky in check than a small telco (in the global scheme of things) sitting on its hands with a mother ship pulling its strings from another market place.

The VF/TCL deal is just what PF need to get on the road and Team Vodafone know this.

FX and the rebel alliance aren't going to be left out in the dark though, or at the mercy of VF/Telecom who could cosy up the duopoly and screw FX and the rebels in to obscurity.

The VF/TCL deal draws the battle lines and will flood the market with top people who will get busy, work with FX and the rebels to get a third cable to Australia.  My best guess is that the new cable will head to Hobart and land in both Greymouth and Wellington to deliver a fully protected loop to Australia via PF and SCX capacity into Sydney.  It will also give the South Island a protected link.

So what do ComCom have to worry about?  The short answer is 'nothing'. The longer answer is that this is a chess board with lots of teams.

What's more, this deal is likely to light up the comms market and put real pressure on other industries to keep revenue that's going to flow to comms.  Transport and roading are prime targets to be loosing revenue as people look to comms rather than travel, new cars and fuel costs.

Yes, ComCom will do a study, they'll do a report, they'll agree on a review and turn some really big trees in to paper to record details of all the issues they could think of to consider... that's what government agencies should and do.


>> Someone posted some questions that I also responded to.  So I've left the questions as the comments don't make sense out of context...

> How will the merger alter the structure of the telco market and its
various components (fixed lines, mobile, spectrum, customers, HFC,
fibre, et cetera et cetera)

Wireless spectrum is going to be a really interesting question. Everyone wants to drive the perception there's never enough of the stuff and it's worth more than gold...

Our technology is just getting better and better at using it.

I don't currently see how this deal is going to have much impact on spectrum issues at all.  The 700 space is going to come up for sale and there's a perception at present that it's got some real value, so the big guys are going to bid hard to buy up as much as they can just to make sure that others don't get it and use it to take market share off them.... nothing new there.

If anything it's likely to mean that VF can make real use of the space as it will be able to deliver more data to the radios via the fibre it's buying.

>and will it prove to be a net good or bad
thing for the Internet in this country?

Great!!!

>The question could be someone's PhD thesis, surely, but it would be good
to avail of the talent and expertise on this list to define and answer
some of these higher level questions, perhaps even within the context of
our INZ principles?

PhD... now there's a novel idea.

> 1.The Internet should be open and uncaptureable.

Telecom, Vodafone, Chorus, FX and the Rebel Alliance.

Without Telstra's controlling influence, we'll have a far less captured Internet in New Zealand than we have today.


>2.Internet markets should be competitive.

It's going to be red hot!  VF will have scale to ensure PF happens and they'll have the motivation required to get the job done.  Owning this much tail, but being tied to your biggest competitor is a business risk that VF aren't going to be silly about.

FX are going to fly or die and there's way to much talent in that pool for it to die.


>3.Internet governance should be determined by open multi-stakeholder
processes.

The Rebels will see to this because their life depends on it.  The Rebels are also full of ego which means bus loads of geeks who will continue to foster openness.

What's more, TCL->VF is going to tip some ego's out of both of those two so there's going to be more folk out there wanting to have a say, not less.

>4.Laws and policies should work with the architecture of the Internet,
not against it.

This deal will give us another heavy weight in New Zealand with global reach to bat the ball about.  One might argue that we'll end up with another puppet with strings being pulled from other shores.  I doubt that, but if that ends up being the case then we're just back in the same place we are now.

>5.Human rights should apply online.

VF have helpdesk services in New Zealand where a New Zealand minimum wage applies.  So this deal means a win for human rights.

>6.The Internet should be accessible by and inclusive of everyone.

This change is going to enhance this goal.  It's going to draw some more clear battle lines in the sand and generate real motivation for FX and the Rebels to drive forward hard.

>7.Technology changes quickly, so laws and policies should focus on activity.

This is 'activity'.  Bocking this deal would mean a continuation of the lack of activity we've had.  As far as laws and policies go, we've got a good frame work now for a competitive market place.  Policy makers now need to step back and just let the market do its thing.  Sure, there might be some mopping up to do in 12 months or even 6 months, but that's a generation in Internet terms, so we need to let the current activity play out.

>8.The Internet is nationally important infrastructure, so it should be
protected.

It's also really important that the infrastructure is used and this deal is likely to drive more use and open up more new opportunities.





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Reply # 658891 20-Jul-2012 09:16 Send private message

DonGould: I posted this on the Internet NZ mailing list... ....


That's all well and good Don, but tell us what you really think of the TelstraClear & Vodafone merger Wink




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  Reply # 658943 20-Jul-2012 10:31 Send private message

DonGould:
D1023319:  Certainly looks like costs for tv portion of my triple package will rise although i have having difficulty figuring out if Telstra negotiated a lower price with Sky or which stations are sourced from SKY.

on upside - as SKY stick its head and shoulder further above the competition for content provision in NZ as the result of this merger, at least it means they are more likely to be shot between the eye balls by MED.


I don't understand.

Who is competing at all?

If you're talking about movies then there's just bucket loads of internet based solutions now.

If you're talking sports then there is no competition at all is there?





I dont give a toss about sport or movies on TV. good riddance to them!

I subscribe to telstra TV for TV7 type programs such as history channel, BBC knowledge, etc..

Hence I was referring to Alan Freeths reported comments that  skys requirements for exclusive supply arrangement meant telstra couldnt source cheaper programs from other providers.

It is in this environment - I'd like MED to outlaw this restrictive SKY package where they can lever off stuff such as sport to lock a TV distributor into their service. 

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