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don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz
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  Reply # 659890 22-Jul-2012 13:33 Send private message

menabassily: Sorry mate, I didn't mean any offence at all,


You didn't offend at all man.  :)  I hope you didn't take my responses to personally.


menabassily:  it seems that I haven't explained the problem right and this might have caused this confusion.


No, you didn't explain yourself well initially... but that's all part of 'developing a discussion' when you're wanting help with a complex issue.  :)

I wonder if my post was not well presented.

My point was "pffftt... you think you don't get it...  neither do these 'EXPERTS'" :)

menabassily: Here it is,
Telstra offers a server that is supposed to cache all the games out of steam server so that instead of a thousand users downloading the same game which is a lot of international traffic, it will be downloaded only once into their local server and then all the traffic is local.

The problem with that server is that it doesn't include all the games, just a number of games.


Ok this is where the rubber hits the road and things are getting more interesting.

What you're saying, to me, is that your perception of the service doesn't line up with what it does.

What I'm hearing now is that you simply feel like you've been mislead in the sales process.

DV has out lined how the service does work and that seems quite different to your perception.

To me, this now comes down to a simple CGA/FTA issue and if you're not happy with the way that the service does work (now that DV has explained it more clearly) then you should consider if you can get the value you're wanting/expecting from another provider.

The amount of complaining I've read about this whole stream space, I suspect that you're not going to find the value you're expecting anywhere else either, but it would be worth a look about.

Observation suggests that TCL won't hold you to a contract if you do feel you've been misinformed and do want to choose another provider, however just calling up the helpdesk for a complex issue like this will be frustrating and you'd be best to just post such a request for help here and I'm sure one of the TCL team will help you out.



menabassily:  What I am suggesting is, 1, add a form or somepage for people to "request" a game to be added to that server. 2, at least provide a support number or email to support this service (unmetered)


This is a great idea for good will.  However I suspect it would cost so much to implement that I don't like your chances.  If it takes 10 minutes, that's $20 for each update.  You have to remember that the techs time is not free, nor is the resource he's using, such as his computer, office desk, lighting, heating etc.


teamyoyo: Telstraclear's Steam server is rubbish.


menabassily: That's right, I agree 100%


Raises an interesting question.  Is anyone elses server any better?

What do steam have to say about this issue?

DV has given you a great explanation of things, so it makes me wonder what the stream thinking is.

Are they thinking that they've got servers in X providers in New Zealand and that the entire data set is on the 'New Zealand' servers, the problem is just that the .nz servers aren't all peered together?  (DV do you know more about this space?)






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don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz
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  Reply # 659932 22-Jul-2012 16:00 Send private message

MF was right, DV's post is great and really helpful to get some better understanding in this space! :)

DoomlordVekk: 2) TelstraClear, to the best of my knowledge has got ZERO input or control as to what is served, content-wise from the cache.
The only real control we have is if the lights stay on, what IP ranges are served from it and the size of the pipe that feeds and serves it.


Interesting.

This is the kind of thinking that would not be acceptable under CGA from a retailer for a DVD player.  As a retailer in the electronic goods space you have obligations such as ensuring the goods are fit for purpose, the function is as stated and timely repair.

When choosing products to present for sale, retailers much have supply chain issues well addressed.  For example the retailer is not allowed to say "sorry, it's only got a 12 month warranty" if it's a reasonable expectation the item will/should last longer.

They also can't say "I'm sorry, its not our fault that the box says 'plays all DVDs'" when the user complains it only plays region 4 DVDs.  The retailer is responsible for checking products and making sure that the packaging and presentations reflect the product.  They can't disclaim a window poster as being supplied by the wholesaler.

Don't get me wrong here guys, I'm not suggesting that DV is implying or saying TCL aren't following the spirit of the FTA/CGA.  As far as I can see, he's not, he's giving you a heads up on how things are currently working and opening up the discussion, so let's not shoot the messenger.

What I am saying is that I think we need to constantly consider if the way things are done in the internet space mirror expectation in the normal consumer world.

DoomlordVekk:
Why moan about something that has been put into place to help you out?
If it's going to drive you into data deficit to get the game, based on it NOT being unmetered, then maybe you need to consider your data spend or your gaming habit.

Why not look at it as, "well, it's going to cost me $40 for the game via Steam and ~$10-15 in data, thats better than $90-$110 to walk into EB Games and buy it.  Oh, that came out of the cache, thats $10-15 that I didn't have to pay"

Sure, you can't gurantee what will come from cache but even factoring in the data charges, you're still better off than walking into a B&M store and walking out more than $50 lighter in the rear pocket.


Store Lobby

I agree that DV touches on some really interesting dynamics and a much better way to be currently looking at things.

I don't know, but I'm sure the store owners are also lobbying the streem/game manufactures just as the OP is here lobbying his ISP.

It's a very interesting business dynamic and the social issues are huge.

From the stores point of view, they want enough content on those local servers to drive interest, but not so much that it means that you never visit their stores for stuff.

The stores still sell a lot of product, so as a distribution chain it's still important and going to get a lot of consideration.

Public Health

While I presented questions about regulation with respect to FTA and CGA, you're likely to have trouble getting traction with regulators because of competing public health issues.

Policy makers want you taking time to go into stores rather than just downloading everything from the comfort of your couch.

The WII was meant to get us off the couch and into exercise, it failed.

Shopping makes you take a walk.  While it's not a run, it's not a game of rugby, it's still exercise.


Economic Money Cycle

DV is right, when you got to the store you might end up spending $50 more.  But you have to also ask where that $50 is going.

Stores are often in malls, malls are often owned by super funds, super funds pay money to your grandparents, your grandparents give you money for games.  Break the cycle and you'll have no money for games but you'll also be looking after your grandparents because they have no money because their investment doesn't deliver any return any more.  See how this starts to get really complex?

You might argue that the simple answer is your grandparents super fund should invest in your ISP.  Ok, but you're arguing that your ISP should just give the data away and the only person you should pay is the overseas game manufacture for the game...

Employment Eco System


(click to see larger version)

You could lobby all your friends to just stop buying at the stores.  If you kill off the distribution chain then there will be more investment in to the new chains, the online chain. 

But before you do that you need to consider where your parents are working?  The diagram above was written to talk about the impact of not employing youth in local call centers for your ISP.

The same dynamics apply to gaming industry as well.  You can't work in a CD store any more, they don't exist.  You just about can't work in a DVD store and the way we're heading you won't be able to work in a gaming store either.

Become a Game Writer

You might argue that you'll just write the games and sell them on line rather than work in a store.  That's cool...  but the problem is what about the guys who's skill is to sell games, not write them?  What about the guy who's really interested in games but doesn't have the skill to write them?

International Link Cost v's Local Infrastructure

You've also got the international cable guys in there as well.  They don't want to much stuff on the local servers because they want traffic on their cable.

As DV points out, the servers aren't home computers from 1980, but we also have to remember those boxes are shared between 250,000 potential users.  It might be that the CPU/User ratio is lower than a ZX81 in capacity.

It's a balancing act.  Should TCL put on another server?  Say $20,000 more CAPX.  Or should TCL just buy $20k more capacity from SCX?  What will the users get more value from?


Summary

The dynamics of moving from horse and cart to car, gas to electricity and to a digital age are complex and many people become frustrated along the way.

We have to remember that change has to be managed and take time, decades. 

We have to be aware that there are many competing issues and many of them are complex.




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BDFL
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  Reply # 659939 22-Jul-2012 16:26 Send private message

Very good thoughts but you are making it extremely complicated.

The OP had a simple question which has been answered.

If you want to put your thoughts out there why not get a Geekzone blog and stop hijacking discussions?




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