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9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 672061 14-Aug-2012 08:12 Send private message

sbiddle:
ahemphill99: I wonder in the commerce commission should be interested in this. As I see it, TC are effectively misselling their product to the average consumer. There should be better (more obvious) disclosure that internet speeds only modestly increase on the majority of internet usage. A consumer should not expect dramatic increases in download speed from iTunes or youTube, for example.





I disagree entirely. The problem here is one of a general luck of understanding from the average person as to how the internet works. With no disrespect to you, you're clearly in this boat.

The simple reality is a 100Mbps connection does not mean the entire internet will be delivered at 100Mbps, in much the same way you can't do 100Km/h in your car on every road you travel on, no matter what time of the day it is.



I entirely agree - there is a lack of understanding of the average consumer (and I am certainly one of them). TC therefore have a responsibility (in my opinion) to inform their customer in a simple straightforward language, what they can expect from this service - something like your 2nd para would do.



 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 672075 14-Aug-2012 08:36 Send private message

I cannot see how TCl would be liable. The product does what they say it does. How you use it is up to you. I do get top speed from my connection. But I know how to use it.

It has been well posted how high speed works.

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  Reply # 672165 14-Aug-2012 11:15 Send private message

Quinny: I cannot see how TCl would be liable.


I'm currently running a back up from a .us server.  It's peeking at 95mbits/s.

Last night it wouldn't get past 45mbits/s.  Why?

Is this because TCL had to much load on the local BRAS for me to get traffic at 11pm at night? 

Where is the congestion? 

Is it because the load on the server at the other side was just to high?

Should I email the NOC guys and get them to help me get to the bottom of this - We've got DV, Dave Robb, AK, cg and a few others following on list, so it' not like they don't know my data is running slow at 11pm.

But what happens when/if we discover the problem is my .us server? 

I pay $115/month for this service.  Should they then send me a bill for time spent to track down what's causing the slowness late last night?

Or should we just have them put the price up to ~$250 for every user so that they budget for half an hour of DV's time per user per month to track this stuff down and prove it out?

Not a silly suggestion, and in fact that's what we did have.  But as we discovered, no one will buy the faster services when they're over priced.

As for ComCom...

If anyone feels that things aren't as they should be then yes, very much you should contact ComCom and raise a query.  I have, more than once.

But don't expect that ComCom will then take a big stick to TCL, that's not what they're their for. 

The roll of Government is to provide a long term direction with regulation and help to foster a good industry, not just run round like angry policemen whacking providers with batons.

Anyway, I hope these comments provide a bit of perspective to help support Steve's comments.

D








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  Reply # 672192 14-Aug-2012 11:43 Send private message

sbiddle: 

I disagree entirely. The problem here is one of a general luck of understanding from the average person as to how the internet works. With no disrespect to you, you're clearly in this boat.

The simple reality is a 100Mbps connection does not mean the entire internet will be delivered at 100Mbps, in much the same way you can't do 100Km/h in your car on every road you travel on, no matter what time of the day it is.



Quoted for truth

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 672239 14-Aug-2012 13:45 Send private message



I entirely agree - there is a lack of understanding of the average consumer (and I am certainly one of them). TC therefore have a responsibility (in my opinion) to inform their customer in a simple straightforward language, what they can expect from this service - something like your 2nd para would do.


 


Andrew, at the risk of sounding like the Grumpy Gnome from the Ministry of No(tm), what would you have ISP's do in this situation?

Should we put up a 1 pager giving a brief outline of the Global Internetwork, how ISP's swap Border Gateway Protocol information telling each other about reachable network prefixes, how the providers of Network Transit services exchange and advertise their downstream customer's information with upstream providers, aggregating those prefixes as it moves closer to the core of the Internet?

If we did that, we'd then need to put up a 1 pager on how TCP/IP works, the handshaking that goes on, the information exchanged in said handshake and what it tells the other half of the conversation.

Often investigating What You Need To Know takes you deeper into What Other Things You Need to Know

I have no wish to come across as patronising but the information you're  referring to as needing to be explained, in laymans-speak, to customers that don't understand  really only comes about after 5 years of working in and around Networking and the larger Internetwork as a whole.

As the speed of network connections increase, so does the requirement for understanding of how it works to make best use of it.
Just like you can't drop in off the street and hop into a Formula 1 car and go for a lap of Nuremberg, Network folk have had to beat arcane information into their skulls to understand how it works to bend technology to their wills.

3 things to take out of this please

1) It's not simple, if it was, everyone would be doing it.
2) If you wish your network connection to go faster, learn more about TCP/IP tuning, Long Fat Networks & Bandwidth Delay Product.
3) The internet is a best-efforts service, to the edge of your ISP's Upstream/transit provider, we can provide you a fast on-ramp, and transit across town, once you hit Orcon-Ville, ABC-ISP-town or Oz-Optusberg, then you can't expect the 6 land highway to stay as six lanes and not have other drivers to navigate around.  If you want guaranteed 100Mb service to your seedbox in Amsterdam, then we can engineer a connection for you but you won't like the monthly price-tag to do so.

Grumpy Gnome out.




"Customers don’t expect you to be perfect. They do expect you to fix things when they go wrong." Donald Porter – British Airways

The views expressed here are my own and are not reflective of other organisms or organisations.

9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 672264 14-Aug-2012 14:17 Send private message

DoomlordVekk:


I entirely agree - there is a lack of understanding of the average consumer (and I am certainly one of them). TC therefore have a responsibility (in my opinion) to inform their customer in a simple straightforward language, what they can expect from this service - something like your 2nd para would do.


 


Andrew, at the risk of sounding like the Grumpy Gnome from the Ministry of No(tm), what would you have ISP's do in this situation?

Should we put up a 1 pager giving a brief outline of the Global Internetwork, how ISP's swap Border Gateway Protocol information telling each other about reachable network prefixes, how the providers of Network Transit services exchange and advertise their downstream customer's information with upstream providers, aggregating those prefixes as it moves closer to the core of the Internet?

If we did that, we'd then need to put up a 1 pager on how TCP/IP works, the handshaking that goes on, the information exchanged in said handshake and what it tells the other half of the conversation.

Often investigating What You Need To Know takes you deeper into What Other Things You Need to Know

I have no wish to come across as patronising but the information you're  referring to as needing to be explained, in laymans-speak, to customers that don't understand  really only comes about after 5 years of working in and around Networking and the larger Internetwork as a whole.

As the speed of network connections increase, so does the requirement for understanding of how it works to make best use of it.
Just like you can't drop in off the street and hop into a Formula 1 car and go for a lap of Nuremberg, Network folk have had to beat arcane information into their skulls to understand how it works to bend technology to their wills.

3 things to take out of this please

1) It's not simple, if it was, everyone would be doing it.
2) If you wish your network connection to go faster, learn more about TCP/IP tuning, Long Fat Networks & Bandwidth Delay Product.
3) The internet is a best-efforts service, to the edge of your ISP's Upstream/transit provider, we can provide you a fast on-ramp, and transit across town, once you hit Orcon-Ville, ABC-ISP-town or Oz-Optusberg, then you can't expect the 6 land highway to stay as six lanes and not have other drivers to navigate around.  If you want guaranteed 100Mb service to your seedbox in Amsterdam, then we can engineer a connection for you but you won't like the monthly price-tag to do so.

Grumpy Gnome out.


Thanks Grumpy Gnome.

I shouldn't come on a technical forum and expect a sympathetic ear from technical people, such as yourself - my fault :-)

I would have thought however, that TC could say something like: "Maximum 100gb download speed is only available with optimal conditions beyond TC control, in many cases, customers should only expect modest increases in download speeds from our standard plans" - or something like that.

This shouldn't be buried in fine print, but made obvious to the customer. ie. proper disclosure of the product consumers are receiving.

... anyway, Im sure they would let me scale back to the cheaper plans ... so I don't have a real gripe.
 

586 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 672366 14-Aug-2012 16:45 Send private message

This thread seems to have lost its track a bit...but my two cents...


Recently a game called Starwars the old republic started having issues with one of its Aussie hosted servers(hosted by Vocus I believe). Many many Aussies all of a sudden couldnt log into this server at all and most seemed to be from ISP Adam.net or Dodo.net. This started about 9th July and continued until last week..over a month.

Throughout this affair blame was leveled at all parties..ISP's, host and game owner and all expressed their innocence stating it wasnt their problem. Must remember that all the affected game players (a few hundred) were all paying the game company A$15/month.

Things got very very heated and tracer routes were posted every 5 minutes and still it was NOBODY's problem. Everyone realised that it was clearly a routing issue somewhere within the Aussie network. Eventually on the 2nd August the game company wrote

"Thank you for your continued patience in this matter. After on-going discussions with an external ISP company we believe we have located the location of where these issues are occurring.

The ISP has confirmed that they will be attempting to apply a fix within the next 12 hours in order to resolve the issue. "

To cut to the chase....we have all seen and been affected by this type of thing to some degree in the past. Surely we are of an age where SOMEONE needs to take responsibility for these issues so they can be corrected in a timely manner.

Whilst we all seem to agree that whilst the problem does not always belong to YOUR ISP, it does belong to someone on the network. Imagine if Electricity Lines Companies adopted the same stance!

Maybe the ISP's need to come together and brain storm it...after all it is 2012 and we do rely on the internet now.


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  Reply # 672373 14-Aug-2012 16:59 Send private message

ahemphill99:  TC could say something like: "Maximum 100gb download speed is only available with optimal conditions beyond TC control, in many cases, customers should only expect modest increases in download speeds from our standard plans" - or something like that.


For the most part this is pointless and in fact generates more help desk calls, not less, which in turn drives up the cost for everyone.

Why?

From your own statement ..."Maximum 100gb download...

Even in your own solution, you have stated the unit of measure incorrectly.  So how, as the ISP, can I be assured that you have any understanding of what I'm saying?

Is there even any point in bothering to write the words if I know that you simply won't understand?

Yes

The short answer to my own question is 'yes', it is worth writing the terms of service or at least providing some basic education.

But this really does come down to education, and education is not TCLs job alone or only job.

Forum is Better

Having public forums such as GZ (and others) is in my view a much better way to present answers to these problems anyway.

Earlier in the year I looked at the service terms and conditions for about 5 different providers here and in Australia.  The shortest was around 3 pages and Telecom New Zealand win the prize with 32 pages.


Telecom is Expensive

I think we can all agree that Telecom is one of the more expensive providers.  Yes, I will accept that from time to time they deliver a new product which has a bit more value than others, but they're quickly over taken. 

Telecom often, as proven by my comment above, deliver the sort of information you're asking for.

However, when the answer is buried in 32 pages, would you read all that to get your answer?

So we've back at "why bother"?  Paying someone like DV to write those 32 pages for you costs $50,000.  Yes it's more than $1,000 dollars per page by the time you count up all the time for managers, lawyers and tech people who have to read it, edit it and sign off on it....  and people wonder why internet costs so much money in New Zealand... it's not the net, it's all the other stuff that you want, that you don't want, that goes with it.

Forum is Better

In forum you can ask a quick question and those of us know can help you, and if they're people like me who don't work for the provider, then it's not costing you anything at all to find out.

What's more, in the case of TCL, people like me and SB and MF and many others, are backed up by a great team of TCL staff who will spot if errors are made and chime in either directly or behind the scenes.

Keep The ***'s Honest!!!

I get the sense from your post that one of your concerns is about keeping these providers honest and not ending up living in a country with a bunch of ISPs who just rip us all off, drink expensive beer and mess with our nets (hacking) from the pub while laughing at how stupid we all are!

You should check out and join Internet New Zealand. 

Your concerns are fair enough, very real and echoed by many.  But there are also many of us who keep a watching full eye on these issues very closely.

Rest assured, you're not being taken for a ride, we ride the big providers hard and as a community keep them honest.  Many of us work hard to ask the right questions, keep up the right relationships with local and international stakeholders to make sure that New Zealanders are getting the best value and world class value from our providers.

Some of us here have set up our own providers so we know more, understand the issues and can use that knowledge to empower the techs in the big providers to keep good clean ships.

Hope this helps in some way :)

D




Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - [email protected]


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  Reply # 672406 14-Aug-2012 18:14 Send private message

mattbush:  Whilst we all seem to agree that whilst the problem does not always belong to YOUR ISP, it does belong to someone on the network. Imagine if Electricity Lines Companies adopted the same stance!


Matt you make lots of sense.

This to me is why everyone has to take an ownership roll and just say "Yes" rather than "No".

Interestingly, Telstra in Australia do this and they know the value of it and know the cost of not doing it.

However this again is also why public forums rather than calling the ISP directly are so important.

For the sort of issue you just explained to us, this is where as users we bounce the issue about in the public space to collect as much real info as possible and then get more experienced users to escalate it.

There are Network Operators Groups for this express purpose.

Last time I had an issue with an end point in Australia I just posted a single traceroute in the right place and it was picked up by Telstra (who were no responsible for the fault, but where in the data path).

The guy who contacted me passed it 'down' to his level 3 staff and also 'pinged' a couple of Singapore based network operators who had actually seen my original post and were already working the fault.

However, this really is the stuff that the NOC staff in my provider should be doing, not me. 

To my way of thinking, this is their roll.

However, and this is a very big however... 

As users, we have to remember that it is the right of the provider not to operator as we might like them to.

TCL's CEO wrote to me earlier in the year and was very polite in pointing out this exact point, and he's quite right. 

In New Zealand we have a competitive landscape where providers are allowed to be different and they don't have to communicate with us if they don't choose to, just as we don't have to choose to be their customers.

It's just wrong... or is it?

Personally I don't think this is the way to run a business.  But TCL are a big provider in New Zealand and successful and it does work for that team of people.

Simon Hackett, Internode.com.au, built a business on the sort of service that you and I would love to see in New Zealand Matt.  He cashed out/joined iiNet.com.au (Micheal Mallone's Empire) for $105 million in cash and shares... that's not bad for 20 years work!

But TCL was just sold to VF for $840m, with a $500m cash extraction iiuic, and have the same sort of customer numbers, though a bigger turn over I think.

So it's different strokes for different folk.

I guess this is where I say "Roll on UFB"!






Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - [email protected]


6 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 682915 7-Sep-2012 19:10 Send private message

Hey guys

Im new to forums really, I need some help with my warpspeed connection, im only getting 2bar ping on my ps3 while playing modern warfare 3, it lags, disconnects,

Iv configured it time and time again, im now on channel 5 and im getting a better wifi signal on my laptop, where as before i was only 5 metters away and i would have poor or weak signal.

My main concern is for online gaming, could the 2bar ping (even when ethernet cable connected ) be due to the lag comp infinity ward have put in place?

Are there any other ways to boost the the signal strength of the NP805N wireless router?

Cheers hope that makes sense?

BDFL
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  Reply # 682918 7-Sep-2012 19:18 Send private message

I suggest you create a new topic in our LAN/routers subforum as I suspect this is a problem with your wireless configuration, not the service.




6 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 682919 7-Sep-2012 19:25 Send private message

Kool Cheers man!!

135 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 682963 7-Sep-2012 22:36 Send private message



I hope you can see the picture. Any ideas why my up would be so slow?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 682965 7-Sep-2012 22:53 Send private message

Ropata: http://www.speedtest.net/result/2164952928.png
I hope you can see the picture. Any ideas why my up would be so slow?


try a different server, that makes no sense.





135 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 683059 8-Sep-2012 12:21 Send private message

TelstraClear: Hi Matt. Can you please advise what results you are getting from the speedtests here: http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/customer-zone/speedtest/

Cheers, Gary

Hey Gary,

What do you think is wrong with my up speed? Screen shot attached hopefullyshot attached hopefully.

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