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  Reply # 590218 4-Mar-2012 16:37 Send private message

SteveON: No body remembers the First Media days when Telecom bought out fiber then removed it.


Some of us do, especially those there when the business case was approved :-) $79m of goodness... and ugly GREEN cable that sat lower on the poles than the BLACK cable Saturn used. I can still see the technicians putting the cable up on the wooden poles in Mt Victoria way back then - first media was so low to the footpath you could jump up and hang from it....

This thread raises a good question though; namely, the presumption that fibre is the only game in town and everything will be good from it. There will be no more competition in the wired access game, as the LFC's will own that space.

But, every resident in NZ is NOT getting a dark fibre connection. They are getting a lit fibre, whose access speeds and performance characteristics are determined products by the LFC's, which the Retail Providers can rent every month. The fees are determined, as are most of the rules around how they work and what you get.

Sure, for anyone on the old copper network, the performance of the new network will be a step up from now.... but not that much. ADSL2+ is about 20/1, VDSL2 should be about 50/20, Bitstream2 starts at 30/10/2.5 and goes from there.

When the speed and connection experience is determined, where is the innovation?






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AK

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Biddle Corp
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  Reply # 590219 4-Mar-2012 16:37 Send private message

SteveON: No body remembers the First Media days when Telecom bought out fiber then removed it.


Yip.

They also only removed some overhead areas of the network in Mount Victoria and Wadestown/Thorndon/Northland and Silverstream. The trenched network infrastructure in Lower Hutt and Whitby remains to this day - coax and fibre.


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  Reply # 590220 4-Mar-2012 16:44 Send private message

quickymart: Yep, you guys have nailed it.

The network was first in Wellington because that's where the company started. Around 1999-2000 the decision was made to extend to Christchurch, in part due to its topography. There were plans to rollout to Auckland in 2001. Then Telstra Saturn was sold and became Telstra Clear. The network expansion (in Christchurch by that point) was officially "paused" in 2001, and never resumed.

An application was submitted to the then-Auckland City Council in late 2001-early 2002 to rollout the cable network, but a lot of people opposed it, and eventually Telstra Clear went quiet on the plans and dropped them.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3565020
(that's just one article on it)


 

As I understand it from staff who came to work with us from Saturn it was Saturn that put down the Wellington and Christchurch cable. Kiwi Cable had done the Kapiti coast area some years before.  It was then bought out by Telstra and became TelstraSaturn.  When Telstra bought out Clear Communications it was then renamed TelstraClear.   So Telstra basically has done nothing just bought out an existing operation..




Regards,

Old3eyes

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  Reply # 590223 4-Mar-2012 16:55 Send private message

Yes, that too :) I didn't want to mention the Kiwi Cable thing in case it confused things further.

And I remember First Media, it went not long after Saturn started making their services available.

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  Reply # 590243 4-Mar-2012 18:15 Send private message

old3eyes:
quickymart: Yep, you guys have nailed it.

The network was first in Wellington because that's where the company started. Around 1999-2000 the decision was made to extend to Christchurch, in part due to its topography. There were plans to rollout to Auckland in 2001. Then Telstra Saturn was sold and became Telstra Clear. The network expansion (in Christchurch by that point) was officially "paused" in 2001, and never resumed.

An application was submitted to the then-Auckland City Council in late 2001-early 2002 to rollout the cable network, but a lot of people opposed it, and eventually Telstra Clear went quiet on the plans and dropped them.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3565020
(that's just one article on it)


 

As I understand it from staff who came to work with us from Saturn it was Saturn that put down the Wellington and Christchurch cable. Kiwi Cable had done the Kapiti coast area some years before.  It was then bought out by Telstra and became TelstraSaturn.  When Telstra bought out Clear Communications it was then renamed TelstraClear.   So Telstra basically has done nothing just bought out an existing operation..


As I remember it: Kiwi cable did have a limited cable tv network in the ground in a few parts of Kapiti, but after Saturn took over them, Saturn upgraded and expanded the network in Kapiti - adding a phone line network to compete with (then) Telecom as well as beginning to offer cable internet.

I had the impression that Saturn essentially replaced most of the Kiwi Cable network when they upgraded it, but I'm not 100% on that

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  Reply # 590251 4-Mar-2012 19:04 Send private message

I believe it was all upgraded, yes.

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  Reply # 590280 4-Mar-2012 21:06 Send private message


But, every resident in NZ is NOT getting a dark fibre connection. They are getting a lit fibre, whose access speeds and performance characteristics are determined products by the LFC's, which the Retail Providers can rent every month. The fees are determined, as are most of the rules around how they work and what you get.


It's bizzare that people keep thinking that "everyone" is going to be on fibre in the future.  Some users are going to use fibre.  Just like some cars run on LPG, and some people catch trains.

Sure it's currently faster than DSL.  But VDSL etc technology is improving.  And there isn't a huge benefit of using fibre over ADSL or VDSL if you're near the exchange.  If you're far away from the exchange, not too far away from the road, and are willing to spend more money then you will have the option of getting fibre.

In areas that VDSL and Cable are available these will be available at comparable speeds earlier than fibre.

Remember for most users fibre is years away - it's mostly just schools being done initially.   

Japan is sittting on about 45% fibre uptake, and has a lot higher population density, and are more technologically inclined than the general NZ'er.  They've had fibre for more than 10 years.

To the average user there isn't much difference between a 10 megabit, and 100 megabit connection.   It's nothing like the difference between dialup modem and 2 megabit internet.



 

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  Reply # 590328 4-Mar-2012 23:15 Send private message

We have a hybrid coax/fibre network here in Pakuranga Auckland (well that's what I think it is). Next to the grey copper mushroom is a fat green one, should check it out one day.

 





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TelstraClear

  Reply # 590477 5-Mar-2012 10:39 Send private message

quickymart: Yes, that too :) I didn't want to mention the Kiwi Cable thing in case it confused things further.

And I remember First Media, it went not long after Saturn started making their services available.


Those interested can find an overview of our history here: http://www.jointhejourney.co.nz/history.cfm

Cheers, Gary

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  Reply # 590624 5-Mar-2012 13:10 Send private message

old3eyes:
As I understand it from staff who came to work with us from Saturn it was Saturn that put down the Wellington and Christchurch cable. Kiwi Cable had done the Kapiti coast area some years before.  It was then bought out by Telstra and became TelstraSaturn.  When Telstra bought out Clear Communications it was then renamed TelstraClear.   So Telstra basically has done nothing just bought out an existing operation..


TelstraSaturn was in fact initially a joint venture between Telstra and UGC. You may never of heard of them, but small they are not. Eventually Telstra bought them out of the JV as they focused more on Europe and Asia.

Telstra invested huge amounts of capital into TelstraSaturn and then TelstraClear. It was TelstraSaturn that built the core IP network, not Saturn. 

However, core infrastructure is not as visible as digging up the streets to string cable, hence the perception. 

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TelstraClear

  Reply # 590628 5-Mar-2012 13:14 Send private message

michaeln: However, core infrastructure is not as visible as digging up the streets to string cable, hence the perception. 


Again - for those interested - there are details on our network and infrastructure investments here: http://www.jointhejourney.co.nz/network.cfm

Gary

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  Reply # 590696 5-Mar-2012 14:27 Send private message

sbiddle:
cws82us: fibre to home maybe good news for us that telstraclear can use the fibre for there cable service


Sorry but that makes no sense.



Telstraclear will eventually sell plans (Internet, phone and maybe TV) that work over UFB fibre just like every other ISP.



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  Reply # 590941 5-Mar-2012 22:28 Send private message

It's also fair to say that Cable/HFC networks are kind of like cars/boats/<insert other entropy-afflicted toys>, they cost significant $$$ to maintain over their lifespan.  Upkeep of a DOCSIS network plant isn't trivial.
Equipment in each leg of the network, that age, get corroded, needing periodic adjustment etc.  Significantly more so than blowing fibre into a duct and having it pass photons for 25 years.




"Customers don’t expect you to be perfect. They do expect you to fix things when they go wrong." Donald Porter – British Airways

The views expressed here are my own and are not reflective of other organisms or organisations.

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  Reply # 591040 6-Mar-2012 08:59 Send private message

DoomlordVekk: It's also fair to say that Cable/HFC networks are kind of like cars/boats/, they cost significant $$$ to maintain over their lifespan.  Upkeep of a DOCSIS network plant isn't trivial.
Equipment in each leg of the network, that age, get corroded, needing periodic adjustment etc.  Significantly more so than blowing fibre into a duct and having it pass photons for 25 years.


I wander about this stuff...

I like Steak, at $25/kg it's expensive so I don't tend to have a whole meal of it, but have a balance of meat and veg.

I'd like to see costings for fibre v's hfc over a 25 year life which also includes the costs of all the back end stuff.

I guess that given just how many countries are pushing out fibre rather than hfc, then the business case must stack up?  Or are they just doing it because one or two countries did and everyone else feels they have to keep up?






Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - [email protected]


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  Reply # 591101 6-Mar-2012 10:35 Send private message

TC cable is quite good, maybe the best internet in the country. The only reason I'd move from them is because it stops in a power cut, as their repeaters need mains power and have no battery backup. If UFB is battery backed up I'd consider moving to it just for that reason.




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