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  Reply # 747550 19-Jan-2013 21:44 Send private message

There's a reason why Windows is so popular, and Linux isn't (at least in terms of desktop usability); and that reason is command line. No one wants to be doing this sudo apt-get nonsense all day, everyday just to install a simple application. Package managers are going some way to remedy this, but it's still an ugly mix as far as I can tell.

I don't mean this to be taken the wrong way, because I love the idea of Linux, it's just the implementation seems far from user friendly at this point, even with Ubuntu etc.

gzt

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  Reply # 747552 19-Jan-2013 21:51 Send private message

In Ubuntu that kind of thing has not been needed for a long time for the majority of users. I often see people giving assistance posting commandline instructions when the same thing can be done just as easily through a graphical management tool now. Old habits die hard.

Edit: Actually takes a lot longer to explain a UI navigation path compared to posting a simple commandline. That's could be the main reason for that one coming from people who know the system.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 747564 19-Jan-2013 22:44 Send private message

I used Linux desktop for 6 years 2000 - 2006 then switched to Mac OS X.

I love linux but it always needed a tweak under the hood to make features go. The reason I moved to OS X was that it is a UNIX, which is similar, so I could run all my favourite open source software, while not having to tweak things all the time.

In saying that:
(a) there is absolutely nothing that you can't make work under Linux, so I'd say you given up too early, and
(b) having a look at the latest Ubuntu and Mint they look very much ready for prime time, so if I had a reason to move off OS X, I'd comfortably move over to Linux

Can you buy a PC or a laptop with ubuntu or mint pre-installed? When was the last time you tried to install Windows on an arbitrary, non-brand-new PC? I'd say if you had as much patience for Windows to get things to work as you did for Linux you'd end up with no OS to work with at all.

I am sure that if you bought a computer with preinstalled Linux where the manufacturer would actually have thought of the end user and made everything to work, you'd have all you needed.

The problem you describe is not that Linux is not ready for the desktop, but that you haven't located one sold to you pre-installed on the hardware ready-to-go.

In that case try Google's Chrome OS os any of the Android based tablets - there is your consumer grade Linux.




296 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 34


  Reply # 747566 19-Jan-2013 22:52 Send private message

igorportugal: I used Linux desktop for 6 years 2000 - 2006 then switched to Mac OS X.

I love linux but it always needed a tweak under the hood to make features go. The reason I moved to OS X was that it is a UNIX, which is similar, so I could run all my favourite open source software, while not having to tweak things all the time.

In saying that:
(a) there is absolutely nothing that you can't make work under Linux, so I'd say you given up too early, and
(b) having a look at the latest Ubuntu and Mint they look very much ready for prime time, so if I had a reason to move off OS X, I'd comfortably move over to Linux

Can you buy a PC or a laptop with ubuntu or mint pre-installed? When was the last time you tried to install Windows on an arbitrary, non-brand-new PC? I'd say if you had as much patience for Windows to get things to work as you did for Linux you'd end up with no OS to work with at all.

I am sure that if you bought a computer with preinstalled Linux where the manufacturer would actually have thought of the end user and made everything to work, you'd have all you needed.

The problem you describe is not that Linux is not ready for the desktop, but that you haven't located one sold to you pre-installed on the hardware ready-to-go.

In that case try Google's Chrome OS os any of the Android based tablets - there is your consumer grade Linux.


Installing windows 7 to a non brand custom made computer in my experience is painfree, even to most laptops is painfree.  The only issues I have had is with hp and wireless.

Ubuntu is okay but I wouldn't want to talk my wife/mum/brother through a reinstall like I have with windows machines (if a website tells you you have a virus ignore it!!!) 

510 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 747589 20-Jan-2013 00:59 Send private message

dontpanic42: There's a reason why Windows is so popular, and Linux isn't (at least in terms of desktop usability); and that reason is command line. No one wants to be doing this sudo apt-get nonsense all day, everyday just to install a simple application.


The funny thing is, that in another thread people are posting all sorts of keyboard shortcuts that appear to be needed in order to make Windows 8 usable.

You can use the Software Center for installing packages, but the command line is not only quick and easy, but unlike the Windows keyboard shortcuts, the shell keeps a history, just in case you need to remember how you did it last time (or how you screwed it up last time).





#include <standard.disclaimer>

mjb

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  Reply # 747629 20-Jan-2013 09:10 Send private message





contentsofsignaturemaysettleduringshipping

mjb

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  Reply # 747643 20-Jan-2013 09:35 Send private message

mercutio:

 * Video card support,  apparently Intel HD works the best currently.


That would make sense, since Intel employ one of the lead X developers.

Behodar: VMware Tools: First time that I haven't had these working. "sudo ./vmware-install.pl" returns "no such file or directory" despite the file staring me in the face (and I used Tab completion so I know that it's not a typo). I even tried entering the full path in case sudo was changing the working directory.


The shebang will be incorrect, probably pointing to perl in /usr/local. fix that up, and it'll work better.


So.. the underlying thing about the Linux ecosystem, is that it's open source. If there's something you don't like, change it, submit a patch. Some of the community's die hard core developers simply don't take lightly to complaints, and just point at the source code. To understand this, you usually need to think from their perspective. They invest immense effort and time into improving things to continually get told by users that it's sh1t, and not worthy of their attention as it's "too hard to use".

But, to summarise, yes, Linux isn't for everyone - and usually, that means more often than not, it's not for IT savvy people that are highly experienced with Windows or OS X, and are sceptical, and don't really want to use it, just want to bash it.

Surprisingly, put Ubuntu on on a PC for someone not technically savvy, and they'll work it out....




contentsofsignaturemaysettleduringshipping

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  Reply # 747672 20-Jan-2013 10:30 Send private message

mjb:
mercutio:

 * Video card support,  apparently Intel HD works the best currently.


That would make sense, since Intel employ one of the lead X developers.


Is that the only way it's going to work?

Why is Intel and Nvidia so broken still?

Years back you had options like the Matrox G200, which were well supported, and fast.

Now you have "laggy" compared to windows graphics performance.  Even with simple things like web browsing...


Behodar: VMware Tools: First time that I haven't had these working. "sudo ./vmware-install.pl" returns "no such file or directory" despite the file staring me in the face (and I used Tab completion so I know that it's not a typo). I even tried entering the full path in case sudo was changing the working directory.


The shebang will be incorrect, probably pointing to perl in /usr/local. fix that up, and it'll work better.


It could also be lack of executable flag.


So.. the underlying thing about the Linux ecosystem, is that it's open source. If there's something you don't like, change it, submit a patch. Some of the community's die hard core developers simply don't take lightly to complaints, and just point at the source code. To understand this, you usually need to think from their perspective. They invest immense effort and time into improving things to continually get told by users that it's sh1t, and not worthy of their attention as it's "too hard to use".

But, to summarise, yes, Linux isn't for everyone - and usually, that means more often than not, it's not for IT savvy people that are highly experienced with Windows or OS X, and are sceptical, and don't really want to use it, just want to bash it.

Surprisingly, put Ubuntu on on a PC for someone not technically savvy, and they'll work it out....


How many people really want to submit a patch every time they a) find a bug, b) figure out how to fix it, c) create a diff, d) submit it, e) find it doesn't even get included.



69 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 747854 20-Jan-2013 17:30 Send private message

I installed fedora 18 this week and it's great. The only thing that doesn't work is google earth. It did the first time but won't now. I don't see myself using windows for a while.

ajw

986 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 747880 20-Jan-2013 18:27 Send private message

Been using Xubunti 12.04 which a friend installed for me so far after three months still working OK.

mjb

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  Reply # 747888 20-Jan-2013 18:49 Send private message

mercutio: Is that the only way it's going to work?

Why is Intel and Nvidia so broken still?

Years back you had options like the Matrox G200, which were well supported, and fast.

Now you have "laggy" compared to windows graphics performance.  Even with simple things like web browsing...


The intel graphics in this notebook works exceptionally well, so not sure what you mean...

mercutio: It could also be lack of executable flag.



mjb@delta:~> echo '#!/non/existant/path' > foo
mjb@delta:~> ./foo
zsh: permission denied: ./foo
mjb@delta:~> chmod +x foo
mjb@delta:~> ./foo
zsh: ./foo: bad interpreter: /non/existant/path: no such file or directory


"no such file or directory" is the error you'd see for a bad shebang, not a missing executable bit.

mercutio: How many people really want to submit a patch every time they a) find a bug, b) figure out how to fix it, c) create a diff, d) submit it, e) find it doesn't even get included.


Hey, I didn't/don't dispute that - but that's how the OSS community works.




contentsofsignaturemaysettleduringshipping

510 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 747904 20-Jan-2013 19:34 Send private message

mercutio:
mjb:
mercutio:

 * Video card support,  apparently Intel HD works the best currently.


That would make sense, since Intel employ one of the lead X developers.


Is that the only way it's going to work?

Why is Intel and Nvidia so broken still?

Years back you had options like the Matrox G200, which were well supported, and fast.


Unfortunately, like with many things, you have to do some research before you purchase your hardware. I can't remember the last time I had problems with ATI/AMD or Intel graphics, but I'm not usually running a 3D desktop (had compiz on one machine for a short time), or perhaps I've just been lucky.

mercutio: Now you have "laggy" compared to windows graphics performance.  Even with simple things like web browsing...


Just out of curiosity, do you have an example of a web page that "lags" under Linux?

mercutio:
mjb:
So.. the underlying thing about the Linux ecosystem, is that it's open source. If there's something you don't like, change it, submit a patch. Some of the community's die hard core developers simply don't take lightly to complaints, and just point at the source code. To understand this, you usually need to think from their perspective. They invest immense effort and time into improving things to continually get told by users that it's sh1t, and not worthy of their attention as it's "too hard to use".

But, to summarise, yes, Linux isn't for everyone - and usually, that means more often than not, it's not for IT savvy people that are highly experienced with Windows or OS X, and are sceptical, and don't really want to use it, just want to bash it.

Surprisingly, put Ubuntu on on a PC for someone not technically savvy, and they'll work it out....


How many people really want to submit a patch every time they a) find a bug, b) figure out how to fix it, c) create a diff, d) submit it, e) find it doesn't even get included.


But that can't be as bad as, a) find a bug, b) unable to fix it because you don't have source code, c) unable to create a diff, d) complain to vendor, e) find it doesn't get fixed.

In any case, I think the question has been answered...

If people want Unix that 'just works', there is OS X.

If people want Linux that 'just works', there is Android, Google Chrome OS and a number of vendors with pre-installed systems - perhaps not so many in NZ, but I haven't been looking for them.







#include <standard.disclaimer>

Hawkes Bay
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  Reply # 748212 21-Jan-2013 14:16 Send private message

It would be easy to substitute Windows for most of the arguments against Linux here.

Both sides have their good and bad.

Girlfriends Core i3 4GB Win7 lappy was having speed and lag issues since day dot.

Bunged a Quetzal into it, and everything worked perfectly from the LiveCD including sound, WiFi, etc. What a great experience.

Looks good, works great, runs sooo fast, much better than the manufacturer could manage with Windows 7.





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  Reply # 748228 21-Jan-2013 14:41 Send private message

mjb:
mercutio: Is that the only way it's going to work?

Why is Intel and Nvidia so broken still?

Years back you had options like the Matrox G200, which were well supported, and fast.

Now you have "laggy" compared to windows graphics performance.  Even with simple things like web browsing...


The intel graphics in this notebook works exceptionally well, so not sure what you mean...


Ooops I meant Amd and Nvidia...

Intel is the best option right now it seems.



mercutio: It could also be lack of executable flag.




mjb@delta:~> echo '#!/non/existant/path' > foo
mjb@delta:~> ./foo
zsh: permission denied: ./foo
mjb@delta:~> chmod +x foo
mjb@delta:~> ./foo
zsh: ./foo: bad interpreter: /non/existant/path: no such file or directory


"no such file or directory" is the error you'd see for a bad shebang, not a missing executable bit.


Hmm it seems you do get permission denied for lack of executable, and no such file or directory for missing interpreter, both with /usr/bin/env perl and /usr/sbin/perl


mercutio: How many people really want to submit a patchevery time they a) find a bug, b) figure out how to fix it, c) create a diff, d) submit it, e) find it doesn't even get included.


Hey, I didn't/don't dispute that - but that's how the OSS community works.


Yeah, the OSS community doesn't always work that well.  What seems to be with open source is that small things work easily and well, but things too complicated for one, or a small select group of people, often don't work out nearly as well.



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Geek
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  Reply # 748614 22-Jan-2013 09:12 Send private message

In my experience of Windows, Android and Linux I have had as much problems with each. The thing with Windows (imo) is I learned all the bugs and issues and how to get them fixed a long time ago so I don't recognise them coming up as much.

Recently I had to install a Windows partition again (Far Cry 3 on WINE is no-go for now) and it was hell. (No drivers for audio, network, plus no way to lsusb the things to find out what soundcard/wireless card I had, had to open the case). Plus add in installing software by having to find it (omg I forgot how hard and annoying that can be...), putting antivirus and having to update windows...

Linux isn't just OOB for every computer, but it's been pretty good in my experience as long as you know to Google what problems you have.

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