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5100 posts

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  Reply # 726516 3-Dec-2012 22:30 Send private message

Maisy:
alasta: An interesting range of views here.

I personally believe that in any case where the seller has acted in good faith and has not misrepresented the goods then the burden of risk lies with the buyer. I say that on the basis that it is generally accepted that there is an element of risk associated with buying second hand goods from a private seller.

Unfortunately a Disputes Tribunal hearing could go either way because these things tend to end up with a "he said, she said" dialogue where the facts get twisted from either or both sides and the outcome depends on the particular interpretation of the adjudicator. Having said that I think it's pretty unlikely that it would end up in the Disputes Tribunal anyway because it's likely that the buyer realises that she is being petty and is just trying her luck.


Yes I had hoped that that would be the case, however I have just received an email from the buyer's husband, which makes various accusations of deceit and guilt, and demands a refund. Oh dear, looks like this is going to go to the Disputes Tribunal.


They have no legal avenue IMO.

Of course, if you think they are going to be dicks about it remember that they have your address, and I bet you don't have their address.



24 posts

Geek


Reply # 726517 3-Dec-2012 22:35

NonprayingMantis:
Maisy:
alasta: An interesting range of views here.

I personally believe that in any case where the seller has acted in good faith and has not misrepresented the goods then the burden of risk lies with the buyer. I say that on the basis that it is generally accepted that there is an element of risk associated with buying second hand goods from a private seller.

Unfortunately a Disputes Tribunal hearing could go either way because these things tend to end up with a "he said, she said" dialogue where the facts get twisted from either or both sides and the outcome depends on the particular interpretation of the adjudicator. Having said that I think it's pretty unlikely that it would end up in the Disputes Tribunal anyway because it's likely that the buyer realises that she is being petty and is just trying her luck.


Yes I had hoped that that would be the case, however I have just received an email from the buyer's husband, which makes various accusations of deceit and guilt, and demands a refund. Oh dear, looks like this is going to go to the Disputes Tribunal.


They have no legal avenue IMO.

Of course, if you think they are going to be dicks about it remember that they have your address, and I bet you don't have their address.


Yes, that is the part that is bothering me. I need a dog! 

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  Reply # 726519 3-Dec-2012 22:44 Send private message

Personally if I was in that situation, I would just give them a refund if it is getting to that stage, as long as it is in the same condition you purchased it in. eg as long as they haven't caused any damage, and it is in the same condition it was sold in. Far less stress, and you will be able to resell and be in the same position when you resell it. The DT is a gamble as it can go either way.  Have they sent you photos of the screen so you can see it for yourself?
It is always a good idea to take lots of photos of the item before selling it so you can prove it's condition.

Just wondering, if they hadn't pre checked it first and it had been couriered to them, would you give them a refund if they had told you it was faulty?



24 posts

Geek


  Reply # 726520 3-Dec-2012 22:48

mattwnz: Personally I would just give them a refund if it is getting to that stage, as long as it is in the same condition you purchased it in. eg as long as they haven't caused any damage, and it is in the same condition it was sold in. Far less stress, and you will be able to resell and be in the same position when you resell it. The DT is a gamble as it can go either way.  Have they sent you photos of the screen so you can see it for yourself?


Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.

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  Reply # 726525 3-Dec-2012 22:54 Send private message

Maisy:
mattwnz: Personally I would just give them a refund if it is getting to that stage, as long as it is in the same condition you purchased it in. eg as long as they haven't caused any damage, and it is in the same condition it was sold in. Far less stress, and you will be able to resell and be in the same position when you resell it. The DT is a gamble as it can go either way.  Have they sent you photos of the screen so you can see it for yourself?


Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.


Well if the lines are definitely now very visible and they weren't there when it was sold, then you may not had a choice but the DT route, if they decide to go down that route. Difficult situation. The photo on the auction doesn't show how good the screen is, so you probably can't use that as proof that the screen was good, unless you have some better ones.

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  Reply # 726526 3-Dec-2012 22:58 Send private message

Maisy:
mattwnz: Personally I would just give them a refund if it is getting to that stage, as long as it is in the same condition you purchased it in. eg as long as they haven't caused any damage, and it is in the same condition it was sold in. Far less stress, and you will be able to resell and be in the same position when you resell it. The DT is a gamble as it can go either way.  Have they sent you photos of the screen so you can see it for yourself?


Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.


Well yor photos on the auction don't show any visible line, and if they are that obvious they would have been picked up when she tested it.

Suggest you reply by pointing to your auction which has clear images of the screen with no problems.

gzt

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  Reply # 726527 3-Dec-2012 23:00 Send private message

Oh well at least the cat has a home. The sensible way out of it for everyone - relist it with a good description of the fault and set the reserve/buy now at what the buyer paid for it. It will probably sell. It is a good machine and can always be used with a second monitor at the same time if super clarity is really needed. At the end of the day it's ultimate fate is back on trademe or sella anyway.

Only problem is the current owner is probably not the best person to do that because they will be wary of having any responsibility. Given the level of trust they are unlikely to release the machine to you so you can do that directly either.

Given that you would take this course of action if you had funds to refund the seller it is the same outcome but hard to see how you would get from here to there.

gzt

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  Reply # 726531 3-Dec-2012 23:05 Send private message

Maisy:Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.

Yes, that is a fair position. That is a good decision. I suggest posting the screen photos as long as they do not contain information which identifies anyone.

There are one or two trained Apple techs who visit this forum from time to time.

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  Reply # 726532 3-Dec-2012 23:06 Send private message

Curious thread.

She's asked you to come and view it to see for yourself - is that right? That would seem the most appropriate buyer response. Have you taken her up on the offer (if transport is a problem can they simply not pick you up and drop you back?).

I'm just saying that with the DT, unless you've at least tried to remedy the situation - as opposed to refusing to even see the issue for yourself. Well, it just doesn't "look" that good - that's all. The adjudicator will probably ask you what (if anything) have you done to try and rectify the issue.

There's always 2 sides to every story. I googled "faint lines imac 20" and got something. Not saying it's the same issue, just that one does exist.

You'll need to prove that the "faint lines" issue never existed when you had it. It'll be her story vs yours.
She could take it to the DT I guess and demonstrate it there (all the more reason you should at least see the problem for yourself, if you haven't already).

Conversely, as a few have already mentioned you could just refund her (as long as the condition is still the same) and re-sell?

EDIT: Dang, when I typed this 4-5 replies had already come in. So, you've seen the lines - fair enough.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 726539 3-Dec-2012 23:27 Send private message

I'm amazed anyone thinks this is anything other than a case of caveat emptor...

If you buy anything with a LCD (second hand or not) and don't bother spending the 30 seconds it takes to run a stuck pixel test you have no right to complain.

Had she run through this simple test I'm sure one of you would have noticed any pre-existing issues... Pretty hard to argue she didn't have a chance to inspect it properly.

http://jasonfarrell.com/misc/deadpixeltest.php

Frankly, if you were completely unaware of the issue and sold it in good faith your conscience should be clear. If you knew it was dodgy and just "forgot to mention it" then you'd be scum.. Going by the cat thing I doubt that's the case :)

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  Reply # 726547 3-Dec-2012 23:42 Send private message

Anything could have happened to it. Mr angry might have smacked it over because his wife spent all his beer money.

If there's one thing I've learned in my years on Trademe, it is that there are plenty of people out there who are fundamentally dishonest, YOU know that YOU are not dishonest, that the display wasn't faulty when you sold it. You don't know that they are honest at all.

In short, if they want to go to the DT, well it's their right, and what the adjudicator decides is final, MOST of the time they get it right (make sure you print off the TM listing NOW so it still has the details, and take it with you).

If they are trying it on, they probably won't bother since it will cost them to file (and they can't legally tack it on to the amount!).

If they escalate to any sort of actual threat, well, you will find your local constabulary's number in your phonebook, don't be afraid to use it.







---
James Sleeman

My hobby - listing small amounts of interesting/useful hobby electronic components hardware and stuff on Trademe for cheap, all good geek stuff for the "maker" revolution ;-)

Tip for Trademe addicts: install an addon for your browser to get thumbs for all listings.

70 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 726548 3-Dec-2012 23:44 Send private message

From http://www.consumeraffairs.govt.nz/news-1/word-of-advice/2005/online-auctions-2013-know-your-rights-when-things-go-wrong-part-3-of-3 - and bear in mind you are a PRIVATE SELLER and you stated "Only serious bidders please. If you are uncertain about the item, you are welcome to arrange a viewing before bidding. We are located in Sandringham." - I don't think she has a leg to stand on.
Online auctions – know your rights when things go wrong (Part 3 of 3)        Bought a lemon through an online auction. What are your rights?In the first A Word of Advice article on auctions - Online              auction tips for sellers - we provided suggestions to help avoid the              pitfalls of online auctions. This article provides online auction              buyers with information about their remedies if things do go wrong.
Buying from a trader in New ZealandTraditional auctions are not covered by the Consumer Guarantees              Act. In the Ministry’s view online auctions are still auctions,              although buyers are not physically present at the auction with other              bidders. This means you do not get the same protection as you would              if you were buying from a retailer.

But auction website operators and online sellers who are              considered to be operating in trade (as compared to private sellers)              must comply with the Fair Trading Act. This Act prohibits people in              trade from misleading the public about goods or services for sale,              or making false representations about those goods or services.
Private sellers in New ZealandIf you are buying from a private seller through an online auction              site, you are not covered by the Fair Trading Act. The Act does not              apply to private sales. You are also not covered by the Consumer              Guarantees Act, as that law only applies to sales by people in              trade.

As a buyer, the Contractual Remedies Act may give you some              protection when buying from a private seller. However to seek a remedy under this Act you must show that:
  • you were persuaded to buy the item by what the seller said                about it, and
  • what the seller said was untrue, and
  • the seller’s false statements have caused you to lose money –                eg, by having to pay for repairs when the seller told you the item                was in excellent condition.

I don't think she will have a leg to stand on even under the Contractual Remedies Act as how can she prove that what you said was untrue when she checked the item.  A case of BUYER BEWARE I would have thought.



24 posts

Geek


  Reply # 726563 4-Dec-2012 01:24

gzt:
Maisy:Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.

Yes, that is a fair position. That is a good decision. I suggest posting the screen photos as long as they do not contain information which identifies anyone.

There are one or two trained Apple techs who visit this forum from time to time.


OK, here we go, side by side:






24 posts

Geek


  Reply # 726564 4-Dec-2012 01:28

Maisy:
gzt:
Maisy:Yes, they have sent images and yes, there are now lines on the screen which are clearly visible. I am certain that the lines were not there at the time of purchase - they are too obvious to be missed. I am not happy about the idea of taking it back; this computer is now damaged and I am not willing to lose money over damages that I did not cause.

Yes, that is a fair position. That is a good decision. I suggest posting the screen photos as long as they do not contain information which identifies anyone.

There are one or two trained Apple techs who visit this forum from time to time.


OK, here we go, side by side:



Interesting that they are LIGHT lines, therefore presumably most evident when viewed against a dark desktop image. The buyer claims that I used a dark wallpaper to mask the issue... 

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  Reply # 726565 4-Dec-2012 01:51 Send private message

If it was fine when it left your place it's not your problem, end of story.

New owner could have easily damaged it during transport or during setup and that's not your responsibility.

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