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  Reply # 997485 2-Mar-2014 10:52 Send private message

I think some of you are being disrespectful to the people in the military and what they have to do. I'm guessing most that make these flippant comments wouldn't have a clue.




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  Reply # 997511 2-Mar-2014 12:28 Send private message


jeffnz: I think some of you are being disrespectful to the people in the military and what they have to do.


It has absolutely nothing to do with "being disrespectful to people in the military" (and it's extremely likely they were not the ones complaining about it in the first place) ... it has to do with the usual idiotic, politically correct / nanny-state, interferrence by management and government morons. It's the same sheer stupidity as the decision to ban lunch wrap from kids lunchboxes, stopping kids hugging in the playground, etc., etc., etc.

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  Reply # 997524 2-Mar-2014 13:02 2 people support this post Send private message

@jeffnz - agree. Most here are without a clue as they have no real point of reference. The same goes when it comes it discussions about policing, or mine safety etc. However, I think it's incumbent on people, such as yourself, who do have those points of reference to try and correct and guide the others. Even though it's obviously incredibly frustrating at times.


My 2c, fwiw:

Training needs to be complete, ongoing and cater for as many styles of theater deployment as possible. All European forces (UK included) should be regularly training in strong sub-zero conditions so they become conditioned to them and learn how to operate effectively in them. A protracted war, for them, will include such conditions. Just because you're in the cold, doesn't mean you have to be cold.

Training exercises are not about risk, they're about equipping professionals with the skills they need to do the best they can in the conditions they're likely to face. They're about learning what the ongoing risks are from both organisational and personal perspectives. Organisational knowledge helps remove the possibility of denying negligence. Personal knowledge helps keep you alive when it counts.

What seems to be getting implied by some in this thread is that organisations know what the risks are so the personnel don't need to be "unnecessarily" exposed. This is absolute rubbish - if you haven't trained to be effective in harsh conditions, when you are deployed to them you have nothing to fall back on and you will not be as effective as you might otherwise have been. The likelihood of your death increases exponentially from there which is, in my book, organisational negligence.

Pre-deployment training, brought up earlier in this thread, does not provide any form of conditioning for the territory you are about to be deployed in. It provides some mental awareness of what may lay ahead and helps reinforce what you already know. That existing knowledge has to come from regular training exercises.

British forces, ground particularly, learnt some very harsh lessons around cold in the Falklands, especially in terms of field treatment of wounded comrades, a number of whom died or came close to death through being overdosed on morphine. Some of these lessons are now included in combat/advanced medics training here. By the same token, cases of frostbite were considered quite low and this is attributed in large part to the training soldiers had received. Ie on exercises. In the cold. This article touches briefly on these matters - it's an interesting read.




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  Reply # 997543 2-Mar-2014 13:50 Send private message

Buzz Bumble:

jeffnz: I think some of you are being disrespectful to the people in the military and what they have to do.


It has absolutely nothing to do with "being disrespectful to people in the military" (and it's extremely likely they were not the ones complaining about it in the first place) ... it has to do with the usual idiotic, politically correct / nanny-state, interferrence by management and government morons. It's the same sheer stupidity as the decision to ban lunch wrap from kids lunchboxes, stopping kids hugging in the playground, etc., etc., etc.


you justify what you post as you see fit, I see it for what it is as do a lot of others.

@dratsab you are right and you post covers the topic very well




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  Reply # 997588 2-Mar-2014 15:06 Send private message

jeffnz: you justify what you post as you see fit, I see it for what it is as do a lot of others.


Ahhh ... the old "I'll make up what I think you said, rather than bother reading what you actually said" approach ... very useful ... NOT! :-\

I said what I meant. There is no secret message hidden between the lines.

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  Reply # 997598 2-Mar-2014 15:55 Send private message

Buzz Bumble:
jeffnz: you justify what you post as you see fit, I see it for what it is as do a lot of others.


Ahhh ... the old "I'll make up what I think you said, rather than bother reading what you actually said" approach ... very useful ... NOT! :-\

I said what I meant. There is no secret message hidden between the lines.


You clearly have no idea about the military, its personnel and management or any management.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

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  Reply # 997643 2-Mar-2014 17:15 Send private message

KiwiNZ: You clearly have no idea about the military, its personnel and management or any management.

Whatever you want to believe you think I said ... it's certainly not worth wasting my time with. :-\

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  Reply # 997942 3-Mar-2014 09:00 Send private message

I see that the original Daily mail link has been deleted..




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Old3eyes

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  Reply # 997966 3-Mar-2014 09:56 Send private message

Buzz Bumble:
Ahhh ... the old "I'll make up what I think you said, rather than bother reading what you actually said" approach ... very useful ... NOT! :-\

I said what I meant. There is no secret message hidden between the lines.


so you said this : 

" They might cut themselves on the nasty kitchen cutlery ... better make sure they only have kiddy plastic sets to eat with, or just go the whole way and give them little plastic bowls of pre-mashed baby food to be eaten with a spoon that too big to be accidentally swallowed. ;-) "


so how is someone to read this other than you taking a poke at the military at the soldier level not anyone else. I think the message is clear but you seem to think it was meant to say something else. 








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  Reply # 997974 3-Mar-2014 10:15 One person supports this post Send private message

Hey guys just an FYI i spent nearly 6 years as a soldier in the NZarmy (shock horror there are geeks in the army), so i've got first hand experience of what it's like.

and well comparing an army training exercise with a schools 1-2 hour skiing trip....... lol. thats the equivalent of saying you're going camping for 2 weeks but you only go out for 1 night and stay i a 5star luxury hotel.

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  Reply # 997980 3-Mar-2014 10:27 One person supports this post Send private message

Wow, apparently the British Army should get a bunch of geeks from a geek discussion forum in New Zealand to do their training, since half of you seem to be more experienced and knowledgeable. ;-)

Some suggestions seems to be along the lines of "it might happen to them when they're deployed so they should go through it in training" Hmmm... they might get shot too, so perhaps that should be part of their training?



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  Reply # 998130 3-Mar-2014 13:07 Send private message

old3eyes: I see that the original Daily mail link has been deleted..


Wow, thats bad. Was the story too embarrassing? What makes a newspaper remove their stories like that? No sign of it on Daily Mail anymore.

For the time being there is evidence it existed: 
https://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.dailymail.co.uk%20British%20soldiers%20banned%20training%20snowy%20conditions%20Norwegian%20base%20health%20safety%20rules%20deem%20COLD




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  Reply # 998152 3-Mar-2014 13:40 Send private message





Regards,

Old3eyes

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  Reply # 998161 3-Mar-2014 13:59 Send private message

jeffnz: ... so how is someone to read this other than you taking a poke at the military at the soldier level not anyone else. I think the message is clear but you seem to think it was meant to say something else.


Whatever you want to believe you think I said ... it's certainly not worth wasting my time with. :-\

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  Reply # 999918 6-Mar-2014 01:26 Send private message

Hmmm a lot of misinformation here from a lot of armchair warriors. My 3c worth based on my 13 yrs exp in the Army. Firstly, do not confuse training with war. As already mentioned, risk during war is necessary, but risk during training is just plain stupid. Argue all you want about readiness and how you'd expect the perfect Army to be trained in your fantasy world where soldiers are expendable like in your videos games and money just keeps rolling in but back here in the real world things are quite different.

Dratsab:Training needs to be complete, ongoing and cater for as many styles of theater deployment as possible.
Yes if you had bottomless defence budget but in reality it doesn't work this way. Each training year the head honchos will decide what training competencies the Army needs and what standard they need to be performed to. These are prioritized based on current deficiencies, forecasts, long term plans, likely theatres, enemy tactics etc. Budget dictates the cut off point which is often nowhere near where it needs to be and concessions have to be made.

Lets say level 4 is the performance/level of training that a soldier needs to achieve to go to war. In your typical training calendar the Army would be trained to Lvl 2. The front line units first off the rank would maybe be trained to lvl 3 where the safety margins are reduced. Only those units on PreDeployment training (or high readiness i.e. SF) would be trained to Lvl 4 where safety margins are minimal. Real Armys are not deployed by the click of a mouse.

Now in the case of UK where their main threat is likes of a middle east/Afghan type theatre, a tank battle on the rolling plains of a European winter does not rank highly. Putting soldiers at risk to prepare for this unlikely scenario is a poor decision that also takes precious defence dollars away from more important areas which eventuates in lost lives on the battlefield.

Pre-deployment training, brought up earlier in this thread, does not provide any form of conditioning for the territory you are about to be deployed in. It provides some mental awareness of what may lay ahead and helps reinforce what you already know. That existing knowledge has to come from regular training exercises.


Wrong. Those designing and developing the PDT will identify best they can every competency a soldier needs to know to be successful on that deployment. Not just the tactical side but also dealing with the climate, basic language, local customs and treating bug bites/diseases of that area. A lot of this material is often entirely new to the soldier. The PDT will also involve training in as identical terrain as possible. They will define the level that all skills need to be performed to and design a training package to deliver this training and test every soldier to confirm this level of performance has been achieved. These outcomes comes from various sources but mostly allies and lessons they learnt. This content continually evolves with each PDT rotation as more is learned from the battlefield and deficiencies are identified.

As you can see the reality is quite different to what you'd like to believe. Complain all you want about how stupid it all may be but in the end it all comes down to limited dollars and getting the best bang for buck. It is the same in every country.

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