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266 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1032198 27-Apr-2014 20:23 Send private message

TimA:
shrub: All this will do is force it underground and back into the gangs...


You didnt think that reply out... No one would put effort into this product. They just get weed. How would it get into the country and or get manufactured? 


Yes I did all you need to do is look at what happened to bzp it's still out there people are still using it. Its being distibuted by gangs. I still firmly believe that prohibition does not work all it does is feeds a black market. People are gonna get high if its legal or not.

the synthetic is basicly mixed herbs/potpuri with a small amount of a liquid chemical added the get you high bit so its very easy to transport

3325 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1157


  Reply # 1032209 27-Apr-2014 20:54 Send private message

My son is a Cognitive Psychologist his feelings on people who think that we should do nothing about this crap is that they are probably either using it or were delusional from birth. The damage it is doing is easily documented and a huge risk to society.




Mike

 Interesting. You're afraid of insects and women. Ladybugs must render you catatonic.

289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 1032223 27-Apr-2014 21:22 Send private message

afe66: Ethanol, cigarettes are just so much healthier.

This is politics not health.

Let's be honest, parliament won't ban those drugs because too many of us voters are users already and we like to think we are so much better than those loser types who use synthetic highs.

A.


This 'argument' is not well thought out, and I have to wonder why so many 'rely' on it.

Tobacco is actively being removed from NZ (and around the world), by constantly raising the cost to users, and actively making it harder and harder to sell/buy is seeing to that.

Alcohol in moderation is not harmful (to your health) and has been a part of human societies for thousands of years...

Alcohol and and tobacco do have significant health risks for those that abuse them, with a secondary risk to 'third parties.' Just because they're legal doesn't justify legalising other potentially harmful recreational drugs though. 


gzt

4595 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1032228 27-Apr-2014 21:34 Send private message

chevrolux: If I was the government I would create a ghost company and sell poisonous legal highs, that will sort out the issue pretty quick. #GovtConspiracy

The US Govt created policy to similar effect in the late 20's during prohibition. Somewhat predictably they were responsible for killing a fair number of people and causing much additional medical harm along the way.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.html

After prohibition ended in the 30's the only thing they had achieved was giving birth to organised crime. Nice one America.

25 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 2


  Reply # 1032240 27-Apr-2014 21:52 Send private message

shrub:
TimA:
shrub: All this will do is force it underground and back into the gangs...


You didnt think that reply out... No one would put effort into this product. They just get weed. How would it get into the country and or get manufactured? 


Yes I did all you need to do is look at what happened to bzp it's still out there people are still using it. Its being distibuted by gangs. I still firmly believe that prohibition does not work all it does is feeds a black market. People are gonna get high if its legal or not.

the synthetic is basicly mixed herbs/potpuri with a small amount of a liquid chemical added the get you high bit so its very easy to transport


You sure BZP is still around? you might be thinking of methadrone (not methadone) or "bath salts" there's a lot of that around but have never come across BZP that i know of and thats the problem with stuff being illegal you never know what you are actually sticking up your nose. would be nice if cannabis and MDMA could be put through this low risk test

132 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 11


  Reply # 1032244 27-Apr-2014 22:10 Send private message

BZP is definitely still around if you look hard enough.

Synthetic stuff will also still be around. As history has shown, prohibition doesn't work. People will just go back to the real stuff, and you'll still be able to get it off silkroad etc, gangs will get it cheaper than dak and try and pass it off as the real thing. Or get it as a liquid and spray it on cab weed to make it seem stronger. 
Also, people don't only smoke it because it's easier to find. The fact it doesn't show up in most drug tests is a definite 'positive' in many peoples minds

1369 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1032254 27-Apr-2014 22:14 Send private message

afe66: Ethanol, cigarettes are just so much healthier.

This is politics not health.

Let's be honest, parliament won't ban those drugs because too many of us voters are users already and we like to think we are so much better than those loser types who use synthetic highs.

A.


Ethanol isn't harmful when used sensibly - and I understand some studies show some benefits. As long as they are fairly rigorous about policing the age limit and cracking down on drunk driving, I'm fine with alcohol being sold. And I occasionally enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or a beer after work myself.

Cigarettes just involve risk to the person concerned. And while I don't smoke myself (never have), that doesn't bother me either. As long as they are the only ones being impacted, as far as I'm concerned adults should have the right to choose engage in activities they enjoy that involve elements of personal risk - be it smoking, deep sea diving, mountain climbing, contact sports or motorsports etc.

Legal highs on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to see banned. And the sooner the better. Concoctions of random chemicals that appear to have long term mental health effects and are doing unclear, but probably serious and long-term(*), things to large numbers of youths. Personally, I suspect that it's a key factor behind the large upsurge in begging we see on the streets. And, lets face it, this stuff isn't exactly being marketed to the segment of society that's top of the IQ or ability to exercise sound judgement stakes. It is also ironic that this stuff is probably far more harmful than marijuana, which is still banned and the ban is heavily policed.

* Maybe. I'm well aware that correlation doesn't mean causality. It is perfectly possible that, for instance, causality runs the other way - and people with mental health problems are more disposed to consuming certain substances, rather than the consumption of certain substances causing mental health problems. I am prepared to defer to the experts on that one.

268 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 59


  Reply # 1032265 27-Apr-2014 22:34 2 people support this post Send private message

i am also of the view the decision is largely political - based on predominantly anecdotal evidence and a desire to be SEEN to be doing something

that said - implementing the piece of the Psychoactive Substances Act now which requires synthetic drug manufacturers to prove their drugs were low-risk before they could be sold makes sense to me as it is the key benefit the Act brings

it does however amuse me the double standard applied to alcohol and cigarettes given the endless harm and deaths they cause - but meh - what is acceptable and what is not is rarely based on evidence or logic

final comment - in my world - adults should be able to do what ever they want to themselves as long as it ain't hurting anyone else - whether that be booze / smokes / fast food / fast cars / illicit drugs / legal highs etc etc

my body / my life / my choice



132 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1032268 27-Apr-2014 22:43 4 people support this post Send private message

 

final comment - in my world - adults should be able to do what ever they want to themselves as long as it ain't hurting anyone else - whether that be booze / smokes / fast food / fast cars / illicit drugs / legal highs etc etc

my body / my life / my choice




mostly agree with you, but it becomes society's problem when tax dollars are being used to fix you up

3072 posts

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  Reply # 1032271 27-Apr-2014 22:45 2 people support this post Send private message

driller2000: ...... adults should be able to do what ever they want to themselves as long as it ain't hurting anyone else - whether that be booze / smokes / fast food / fast cars / illicit drugs / legal highs etc etc

my body / my life / my choice



This is a short sighted view.

Booze associates with injury, ACC payments, hospital costs etc.

Smokes - those who develop lung cancer - hospital cost, disability payments, home oxygen etc etc.

Addiction (drugs etc) - lose job, no home, resorts to petty crime.

Guess what, in the end, the mantra "my body, my life, my choice" cause problem to others.





752 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1032277 27-Apr-2014 23:02 Send private message

I accept that a lot of the evidence is anecdotal, but fact is that over the past 40+ years I've seen a few people do themselves no good from habitual pot use/abuse, I've never seen any harm from occasional users, but I have two friends with children with psychosis (schizophrenia) attributed by professionals to be the result of use of "synthetics".  Another friend working saturday night A&E would love to see "synthetics" gone.  It's bad enough dealing with alcohol abuse, but an A&E department overloaded with young people suffering from paranoid psychosis presumed to have been the result of use of legal "synthetics" which were able to be adequately identified in order to be regulated as "over 18" but not banned is (or was) nuts.




gzt

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  Reply # 1032278 27-Apr-2014 23:03 Send private message

Quotes from interviews with the professor of organic chemistry who first synthesised these synthetic compounds:
“They may be involved in the development of conditions such as osteoporosis, liver disease and some kinds of cancer. Synthetic cannabinoids can help us understand these interactions, and ultimately this knowledge may contribute to the development of new therapies.” “It bothers me that people are so stupid as to use this stuff".

While they are known to elevate blood pressure -- unlike marijuana -- and to cause increased heart rate and anxiety, to date most of the evidence of their effects is anecdotal, and comes from things like visits to emergency rooms. "There have been a number of people who've committed suicide after using them," said Huffman.

"I talked to a marijuana provider from California, a doctor, a physician," explained Huffman, "and he said that in California, that these things are not near the problem they are in the rest of the country simply because they can get marijuana. And marijuana, even for recreational use is quite easy to get in California, and it's essentially decriminalized. And marijuana is not nearly as dangerous as these compounds."

I agree with him 100%. If marijuana is decriminalised substantially in NZ, a greater variety of genuine marijuana will be available. Nobody will touch the other stuff with a barge pole, including the tainted rubbish often supplied by criminal networks.

268 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 59


  Reply # 1032279 27-Apr-2014 23:04 Send private message

nakedmolerat:
driller2000: ......  adults should be able to do what ever they want to themselves as long as it ain't hurting anyone else - whether that be booze / smokes / fast food / fast cars / illicit drugs / legal highs etc etc

my body / my life / my choice



This is a short sighted view.

Booze associates with injury, ACC payments, hospital costs etc.

Smokes - those who develop lung cancer - hospital cost, disability payments, home oxygen etc etc.

Addiction (drugs etc) - lose job, no home, resorts to petty crime.

Guess what, in the end, the mantra "my body, my life, my choice" cause problem to others.



Not always.

Most of what you mentioned are costs - and some are definitely harm - so fall over in terms of my qualifying statement "as long as it ain't hurting anyone else".

Many of us do in fact do do whatever we want with the above things i rattled off as examples - but we do so cognisant of the risks and the impact on self and others - and this moderates what we do - as it should in any normal functioning adult.

The issue is with the minority, who either make terrible decisions and/or don't give a $hit about anyone else - and they are the ones who create the harm to others.


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1032280 27-Apr-2014 23:04 One person supports this post Send private message

CruciasNZ: Yeah. Glad to see it. There's been a few incidents I've heard of where accidents have been caused and blamed on these things. 


Shouldn't we have got alcohol off the shelves by now, then?!








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  Reply # 1032283 27-Apr-2014 23:08 Send private message

gzt: I read some interviews with the professor of organic chemistry who first synthesised these synthetic compounds. Here are some quotes:

“They may be involved in the development of conditions such as osteoporosis, liver disease and some kinds of cancer. Synthetic cannabinoids can help us understand these interactions, and ultimately this knowledge may contribute to the development of new therapies.” “It bothers me that people are so stupid as to use this stuff".

While they are known to elevate blood pressure -- unlike marijuana -- and to cause increased heart rate and anxiety, to date most of the evidence of their effects is anecdotal, and comes from things like visits to emergency rooms. "There have been a number of people who've committed suicide after using them," said Huffman.

"I talked to a marijuana provider from California, a doctor, a physician," explained Huffman, "and he said that in California, that these things are not near the problem they are in the rest of the country simply because they can get marijuana. And marijuana, even for recreational use is quite easy to get in California, and it's essentially decriminalized. And marijuana is not nearly as dangerous as these compounds."


I agree with him 100%. If marijuana is decriminalised substantially, a greater variety of genuine marijuana will be available. Nobody would touch the other stuff with a barge pole.


I agree.

Nobody has ever given me a logical explanation why vodka should be legal and cannabis illegal.

Mind you, I should have learned long ago not to expect the world to be logical.








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