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  Reply # 1739924 15-Mar-2017 16:28 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

 

 

Not sure I agree it's the basis. What information do you want them to provide you and in what format?

 

 

 

 

Well, a single example of blanket surveillance having caught a bad guy would be a good start. Or, for a different example, how many criminals were caught with any of the bugs our governments have been oh so careful to keep out of the hands of bad guys like Wikileaks. We can get a lower bound for how many crimes were enabled by not reporting them and having them fixed in some cases by looking at statistics on cybercrime.

 

 

 

CSV would be convenient.





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  Reply # 1739926 15-Mar-2017 16:29 Send private message quote this post

dafman:

 

 

 

The point being that you are happy with the government seeing your day-to-day activity because you are happy with the current government - but what if a future government was to be led by someone/regime you didn't trust?

 

You just select the opt out button?

 

 

To some degree I know I have little choice about surveillance by the Government. I don't believe that Labour, or the Greens etc, once faced with the reality of protecting NZ and it's citizens and interests, would conduct surveillance much less or much differently. I know when I travel, I am privy to the surveillance of that country I am in. I have a friend who won't travel to Singapore because he doesn't like the drug laws there. I love Singapore and it's policies around drugs are fine with me. Even if I did drugs, and I don't, I would abstain whilst I was were to comply with that countries rules.

 

If I didn't like it so much I could go to a country where there is no surveillance.. Oh Wait... 

 

It's also worth nothing I'd expect the Government would conduct surveillance on those it believed were doing (or about to do) wrong (and yes, by voting for them (or continuing to live in a country where they are in power), I am empowering them to decide what is right and wrong to a degree).

 

This is NOT the same as leaving my curtains open so EVERYONE can see what is happening in my life.


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  Reply # 1739927 15-Mar-2017 16:31 Send private message quote this post

SaltyNZ:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

Not sure I agree it's the basis. What information do you want them to provide you and in what format?

 

 

 

 

Well, a single example of blanket surveillance having caught a bad guy would be a good start. Or, for a different example, how many criminals were caught with any of the bugs our governments have been oh so careful to keep out of the hands of bad guys like Wikileaks. We can get a lower bound for how many crimes were enabled by not reporting them and having them fixed in some cases by looking at statistics on cybercrime.

 

 

 

CSV would be convenient.

 

 

I believe that even if they provided that, you wouldn't believe them anyway. 

 

Surprised you'd pick CSV over XML :) 

 

 


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  Reply # 1739943 15-Mar-2017 16:47 Send private message quote this post

jjnz1:

 

 

 

If a Government wants your data, there is not much you can do to stop them - 256 bit encryption - easily broken.

 

 

Easy is relative; however using strong encryption does make casual mass surveillance impractical.


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  Reply # 1739948 15-Mar-2017 16:54 3 people support this post Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

 

 

I believe that even if they provided that, you wouldn't believe them anyway. 

 

 

 

 

Well, there does have to come a point at which I decide whether they're being open and honest enough to for me to believe what they say. But it isn't where they are now, which is that they have the legal authority to destroy someone and no obligation to show they were operating in good faith or to redress any of the harm they've done, and that most of the people who have oversight of the process are the main users of it. I would be convinced if 'they' released information that was independently verified by others with no skin in the game. Perhaps a panel of ex-High Court justices or the like. But I'm definitely not going to take the word of the people who have the most to hide if there is anything untoward going on. I don't get to say to the IRD 'trust me, I really do deserve a $5M tax refund this year'. Why should the government get a free pass to do the same? Because they won a popularity contest?

 

This country is nowhere near as bad as some others - say, the USA, where the CIA have just been granted authorisation by the president to kill whoever they like with a drone strike - but every little step we allow our government to take without pushing back takes us in that direction. Where would you draw the line? Before or after someone you know and love was wrongfully targeted? Before or after some otherwise completely competent person went home tired one day and left all your personal records in a flash drive on the back seat of the bus? Before or after the southern sheep farmer was replaced a 6-time bankrupt reality TV show star as prime minister?

 

And how would you propose to walk it back once that line was crossed? Winning in court means nothing if you've lost everything to fight.

 

My 'belief' is that it is better never to allow ourselves to get to that line in the first place. My 'belief' is that it is not a choice between privacy and security. It's a choice between more security and less security. The fewer secrets collected, the fewer secrets can be exposed. The fewer secret back doors not fixed in order to spy on a handful of possible terrorists, the fewer back doors are available to the thousands of criminals who attack millions of victims every day in order to steal their money.

 

This is a safe country. If there is arguably anywhere a need to give up the rights our ancestors fought and died to earn, in the name of illusory safety, it certainly isn't here.

 

 





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  Reply # 1739955 15-Mar-2017 17:01 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic: The great thing about democracy is our votes cancel each other out. Maybe we just shouldn't bother.

 

While technically you have a point, in reality you are aiming to 'tip the see-saw' in favour of the direction you want to see the country move.  If you don't add your weight, the chances of things moving the way you want them to is diminished.





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  Reply # 1739957 15-Mar-2017 17:07 Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

 

 

This is NOT the same as leaving my curtains open so EVERYONE can see what is happening in my life.

 

 

Ok, let's extend on on the neighbour thing. I'm not your neighbour (well, I don't think I am ...), would you be comfortable with me - yep me typing this - having full access to your digital life?


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  Reply # 1739966 15-Mar-2017 17:41 Send private message quote this post

dafman:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

This is NOT the same as leaving my curtains open so EVERYONE can see what is happening in my life.

 

 

Ok, let's extend on on the neighbour thing. I'm not your neighbour (well, I don't think I am ...), would you be comfortable with me - yep me typing this - having full access to your digital life?

 

 

 

 

You are clearly missing the point I made, and it's hard not to feel you aren't doing so deliberately. 

 

One last time. Why should you have access to my private information? Are you tasked with protecting me, the country I live in, or it's citizens?


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  Reply # 1739971 15-Mar-2017 18:26 Send private message quote this post

SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

This is a safe country. If there is arguably anywhere a need to give up the rights our ancestors fought and died to earn, in the name of illusory safety, it certainly isn't here.

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's safe BECAUSE of the surveillance, but even if that's not true, will you only be ok with surveillance one someone flys into the sky tower and kills 1000 people? 

 

Personally, I'd rather give up some privacy to the elected government than learn the hard way we need it. 

 

Though, I have to say that based on comments in this and other threads, I get the feeling if there was a terror attack, some would believe it was done by the Government to convince the "sheeple" surveillance was required.

 

 


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  Reply # 1739972 15-Mar-2017 18:26 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

dafman:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

This is NOT the same as leaving my curtains open so EVERYONE can see what is happening in my life.

 

 

Ok, let's extend on on the neighbour thing. I'm not your neighbour (well, I don't think I am ...), would you be comfortable with me - yep me typing this - having full access to your digital life?

 

 

 

 

You are clearly missing the point I made, and it's hard not to feel you aren't doing so deliberately. 

 

One last time. Why should you have access to my private information? Are you tasked with protecting me, the country I live in, or it's citizens?

 

 

(not deliberately, promise).

 

And in response to your second question, I might be. Or someone just like me, which is why I asked the question. Delving deep through your private digital life because I'm legally entitled/tasked to.

 

And you are comfortable with this?

 

I'm not.

 

I have no problem with targeted surveillance with just cause, but blanket surveillance, no.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1739979 15-Mar-2017 19:03 2 people support this post Send private message quote this post

Dynamic:

Rikkitic: The great thing about democracy is our votes cancel each other out. Maybe we just shouldn't bother.


While technically you have a point, in reality you are aiming to 'tip the see-saw' in favour of the direction you want to see the country move.  If you don't add your weight, the chances of things moving the way you want them to is diminished.


For what it's worth, democracy isn't about voting. Democracy is about discussions like this one, submitting to select committes, changing peoples minds and getting involved with the process. That's exercising democracy, voting is just the candy bar after.

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  Reply # 1739980 15-Mar-2017 19:07 Send private message quote this post

dafman:

 

 

 

And in response to your second question, I might be. Or someone just like me, which is why I asked the question. Delving deep through your private digital life because I'm legally entitled/tasked to.

 

And you are comfortable with this?

 

I'm not.

 

I have no problem with targeted surveillance with just cause, but blanket surveillance, no.

 

 

Yes, if you are appointed by an appropriate Authority and do so in line with appropriate guidelines, with reasonable grounds (you believe I pose a threat to the country or it's citizens, with some evidence), you are most welcome to Surveil me.

 

None of this is what the OP was about. The Police made an error and this caused untold misery for this poor guy. Even after that do I think that surveillance is necessary? Yes I do. 

 

If you disagree, make sure you vote for a party or move to a country that promises they will not surveil you.. Oh wait...


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  Reply # 1739981 15-Mar-2017 19:19 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

If anyone has an interest in what governments can do with data in the future, here's a little history lesson of what one person with some power did to many, many people using old data the govt had gathered previously.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Plecker

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

 

 

 

Basically, Walter Plecker used old govt data going back to the early 19th century to claim people weren't Caucasian. 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1739982 15-Mar-2017 19:20 Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic:

 

scuwp:

 

My thoughts are along similar lines to @andrewNZ.  Coming from my past life in law enforcement; if the average NZ punter actually knew what went on after dark they would lock themselves in a well stocked safe room and never come out.  Sitting at home in their comfy houses all tucked up nice and tight choosing their next binge series to watch, oblivious to the different world outside that only some get to truly see and experience, some sadly as victims.    I see it as a necessity in this era however there needs to be checks, balances, and controls on what or who can act on that information.   

 

 

Straight from the tyrant's handbook: Make people afraid so they will beg for something to feel safe. Works for snake-oil salesman, as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hark back to page 1 but just managed to get back to this thread.  I am neither a 'tyrant' nor a 'snake-oil salesman', merely sharing a very brief summary of nearly half my years on this fine earth worth of first hand experience.  The fact remains that the average mum and dad have no clue what sort of people are out there, and watching the news every night doesn't even come close to being informed.  But if you want to choose the blue pill that's perfectly OK.

 

 

 

    





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  Reply # 1740000 15-Mar-2017 19:56 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

scuwp:

 

 

 

Sorry to hark back to page 1 but just managed to get back to this thread.  I am neither a 'tyrant' nor a 'snake-oil salesman', merely sharing a very brief summary of nearly half my years on this fine earth worth of first hand experience.  The fact remains that the average mum and dad have no clue what sort of people are out there, and watching the news every night doesn't even come close to being informed.  But if you want to choose the blue pill that's perfectly OK.

 

 

I wasn't accusing you of anything or being suggestive, merely pointing out that fear is often used as a tool to manipulate people. This generally leads to bad policies. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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